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Subject: HOA president trying to manipulate verbage to allow chickens.
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NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:205


06/27/2018 8:47 PM  
When a couple moved into the community they asked if their "pet chickens" could be made a exception for. The president said "We dont allow chickens" but said that he would ask the neighbor and if the neighbor did not mind well awe shucks we'll just break the rules"

That same president who has now stepped down says "We cant make people get rid of their pets"

The new president says "the county calls chickens pets"

The rules say you can have only normal household pets and lists which ones your limited to having.


now that is said.

They want to NOW consider what was always called "pets" , "livestock".......the person who has these chickens is NOW on the board....and I feel they are trying to play gymnasitics with verbiage to cherry pick enforcing the rules.

8.01 PETS
No pets shall he maintained or-kept on any portion of the
property. Including within any dualling unit, other-than common,
household pets such as cats, dogs, goldfish, tropical fish and
the like, and such birds as canaries and parakeets. Ho animals;'
including any of the above, may be kept, bred, w maintained for
any commercial use upon the property or within a building or
structure. In any event, no more than two (2) pets shall be main-
tained within the boundaries of any lot.

My take is the phrase "other than"

Since this is a DEED RESTRICTION, it just be talking about restricting something.

If I said "you cannot pick a number OTHER THAN 4, 5, 6, 7 , than that by default should meant, that every other than is not 4 , 5 , 6 or 7 is ineligble to be picked?

Can anyone tell me if this logic is wrong?

I can't imagine how anyone can say their pets are "now livestock".....and I can't imagine anyone saying chickens are "household pets" either.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:436


06/27/2018 9:54 PM  
These rules are strange. No more than two, including a goldfish? People in a house can't have a dog and a cat and a goldfish? I could have all those in a condo.
NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:205


06/27/2018 10:02 PM  
That is what happens when you hae 70 year old people writing up "deed restrictions"

The lawyer should have keep the 1970s vergbage of "no livestock , no poultry"

And that is why the mess we are in but my above analogy should hold true. of the "other than"

JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:436


06/27/2018 10:10 PM  
Seems like the new President is saying that what the county calls pets overrides what the rules call pets. Essentially, the owner was given a waiver?
NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:205


06/27/2018 10:15 PM  
Well a verbal OK, without bringing it before the board and more importantly the community makes it totally non-since.

That former president did not have any legal grounds to make a exception for anyone.

But I just found out great news, the current president I hear is stepping down in july....due to the lack of effort and ambition. so this is finally coming to a end.

Very good day today.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:569


06/28/2018 5:51 AM  
Chickens are NOT pets!
NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:205


06/28/2018 6:00 AM  
The problem is.

The HOA dictator we have also works as a Public service officer for the county and he's saying at meetings that the "County says chickens are pets"

The livestock owners some of them say "chickens are their pets"

So since your saying "Chicknes are NOT pets!" Is there any legal proof that I can make them understand that chickens are NOT pets?


We have a very very disfunctional board of which 2 board members have chickens at their house , and another board member the treasurer says she would like to have chickens too.
even though she was told that she COULD not have chickens when she moved here..

The HOA president likes to protect board members that are violators trying to play these games. I have a petition to have him removed from the board, but I was told that he would only address this "sometime at a july meeting"

His exact words were ....

The next board meeting we will be addressing my resignation which will take place in July.


If there ever was a ambiguous statement it was that... We have no idea if that means

1. At the july board meeting he will be resigning
or

2. At the july board meeting he will be TALKING about a discussion about resigning.

So this is the kinda @#$#$ we have had to deal with for a long time now.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:569


06/28/2018 6:18 AM  
Since this is already a brouhaha, I would suggest writing a formal letter to the Board. In it I would quote the specific language of the CCRs regarding pets.

Being me, I would also note that I was, in accordance with the CC&Rs and Bylaws, beginning a recall effort for any Board member who voted to violate the CCRs.

I might further note I was working with others to collect money for a lawsuit against anyone with chickens on their property, and that likely said lawsuit would involve any Director who voted to allow this.

This is a BIG DEAL - stop this now or you'll be overwhelmed with roosters at 4 am, others who believe chickens are pets will find out about them being allowed, smells, etc. Your neighborhood will decline in almost every way imaginable.

Chickens are NOT pets!
NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:205


06/28/2018 6:20 AM  
Ok thanks for tips and I'll be sending this out to everyone who is wanting our community to be livestock free! thanks for fast reply!
NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:205


06/28/2018 6:34 AM  
The current hoa dictator presidnet says in the SAME conversation.

"The county says chickens can be pets"

and then 5 min later says

the way our current pet rule reads does not say you can't have chicknes as livestock.

8.01 PETS
No pets shall he maintained or-kept on any portion of the
property. Including within any dualling unit, other-than common,
household pets such as cats, dogs, goldfish, tropical fish and
the like, and such birds as canaries and parakeets. Ho animals;'
including any of the above, may be kept, bred, w maintained for
any commercial use upon the property or within a building or
structure. In any event, no more than two (2) pets shall be main-
tained within the boundaries of any lot.

Does the way the above rules read, does the argument "the way our rules read does NOT prevent chickens"
NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:205


06/28/2018 6:39 AM  
would this hold up in court? as the way our rules read it seems to interchange pets with animals

This whole issue woudl be gone if it said

8.01 PETS
No pets shall he maintained or-kept on any portion of the
property. Including within any dualling unit, other-than common,
household pets such as cats, dogs, goldfish, tropical fish and
the like, and such birds as canaries and parakeets. No animals;'
including any of the above, may be kept, bred, w maintained for
any commercial use upon the property or within a building or
structure. In any event, no more than two (2) pets shall be main-
tained within the boundaries of any lot.


HOLD IT WOW!!! THIS IS A NEW ANGLE

since our rules use the word PETS and ANIMALS interchangley...

as it says "no pets shall be maintianced or kept.." then it says "no animals including any fo the above" that means that pets and animals are indental.

which means that the rules really can be read as

8.01 PETS
No animals s shall he maintained or-kept on any portion of the
property. Including within any dualling unit, other-than common,
household animals such as cats, dogs, goldfish, tropical fish and
the like, and such birds as canaries and parakeets. No animals;'
includingany of the above, may be kept, bred, w maintained for
any commercial use upon the property or within a building or
structure. In any event, no more than two (2) pets shall be main-
tained within the boundaries of any lot.


and if that IS the case.....nobody can dispute that ANIMALS re chickens and if NO animals outside of that animals list are allowed then chickens are part of that category!

I should of thought of this before, but that is how I'm reading it now and it makes perfect since .
AugustinD


Posts:1088


06/28/2018 7:17 AM  
NoahA, state again how big your HOA's lots are?

I imagine the county where you are is coming from the same place as the New Mexico Court of Appeals, 2016:
~~~
We therefore disagree that Section 11 [of the covenants] disallows hens that can be and are treated as pets. And we disagree that to allow hens as household pets creates or opens up any likely circumstances of ruination as expressed by the association and the district court that warrants an interpretation that allowing the hens as pets could never have been intended at any time and under any circumstance. We are not persuaded that in permitting pet chickens "the sky will fall." Such a Chicken Little-esque view of possible results and calamity is not convincing.
...
Section 11 of the covenants cannot be enforced under the circumstances in this case to preclude the owners from keeping their hens as recognized household pets. We reverse the judgment of the district court.
~~~
Full opinion at https://www.leagle.com/decision/innmco20160329275

No further appeal was made. I think the parties agreed to limit the number of chickens allowed on the roughly 5-acre lots.

The section of the covenants that was in dispute reads:

"Household pets. No animals, birds[,] or poultry shall be kept or maintained on any lot, except recognized household pets which may be kept thereon in reasonable numbers as pets for the pleasure and use of the occupants but not for any commercial use or purpose. It is forbidden to permit dogs to run at large in Eldorado. At all times, dogs must be kept, restrained[,] and controlled by their owners in the manner described in the Santa Fe County Animal Control Ordinance. A maximum of two horses may be kept on any lot which has an area in excess of three acres and which has been properly designated, pursuant to these covenants, as a horse area on any recorded subdivision map or by majority vote of the Board of Directors. A stable for such horses may be erected upon such lot."
NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:205


06/28/2018 7:33 AM  
1 acre lots.
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:531


06/29/2018 9:38 PM  
This is at least your third post on the same issue. I don't think asking the same question over and over again is going to change the answer. Your deed restrictions do not restrict chickens unless kept for commercial use. Move on.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:436


06/29/2018 10:17 PM  
Posted By NoahA on 06/28/2018 6:00 AM
The problem is.

The HOA dictator we have also works as a Public service officer for the county and he's saying at meetings that the "County says chickens are pets"

The livestock owners some of them say "chickens are their pets"

So since your saying "Chicknes are NOT pets!" Is there any legal proof that I can make them understand that chickens are NOT pets?


We have a very very disfunctional board of which 2 board members have chickens at their house , and another board member the treasurer says she would like to have chickens too.
even though she was told that she COULD not have chickens when she moved here..

The HOA president likes to protect board members that are violators trying to play these games. I have a petition to have him removed from the board, but I was told that he would only address this "sometime at a july meeting"

His exact words were ....

The next board meeting we will be addressing my resignation which will take place in July.


If there ever was a ambiguous statement it was that... We have no idea if that means

1. At the july board meeting he will be resigning
or

2. At the july board meeting he will be TALKING about a discussion about resigning.

So this is the kinda @#$#$ we have had to deal with for a long time now.




What do your docs say about members removing a director?

And, what good does getting rid of one do, if two others are in favor of chickens?

Even if you replace one with someone against chickens, won't he or she get outvoted?
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:4151


06/30/2018 1:19 AM  
Posted By NoahA on 06/28/2018 6:39 AM
would this hold up in court? as the way our rules read it seems to interchange pets with animals

This whole issue woudl be gone if it said

8.01 PETS
No pets shall he maintained or-kept on any portion of the
property. Including within any dualling unit, other-than common,
household pets such as cats, dogs, goldfish, tropical fish and
the like, and such birds as canaries and parakeets. No animals;'
including any of the above, may be kept, bred, w maintained for
any commercial use upon the property or within a building or
structure. In any event, no more than two (2) pets shall be main-
tained within the boundaries of any lot.


HOLD IT WOW!!! THIS IS A NEW ANGLE

since our rules use the word PETS and ANIMALS interchangley...

as it says "no pets shall be maintianced or kept.." then it says "no animals including any fo the above" that means that pets and animals are indental.

which means that the rules really can be read as

8.01 PETS
No animals s shall he maintained or-kept on any portion of the
property. Including within any dualling unit, other-than common,
household animals such as cats, dogs, goldfish, tropical fish and
the like, and such birds as canaries and parakeets. No animals;'
includingany of the above, may be kept, bred, w maintained for
any commercial use upon the property or within a building or
structure. In any event, no more than two (2) pets shall be main-
tained within the boundaries of any lot.


and if that IS the case.....nobody can dispute that ANIMALS re chickens and if NO animals outside of that animals list are allowed then chickens are part of that category!

I should of thought of this before, but that is how I'm reading it now and it makes perfect since .


If your HOA does not want to not allow Chickens then they potentially need to state that fact in their CCR’s. What you are running up against is potentially similar to my area where the City Government all of a sudden allowed Chickens. Potentially if your CCR’s in their governing documents do not disallow ... then you are potentially screwed. Get the majority of owners together to potentially change your CCR’s to disallow chickens if the majority of owners would agree. More and more Cities and Counties are allowing chickens due to it potentially helps lower income families with a food source .... a.k.a. Eggs and later the chickens.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2349


06/30/2018 12:06 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 06/28/2018 6:18 AM
Being me, I would also note that I was, in accordance with the CC&Rs and Bylaws, beginning a recall effort for any Board member who voted to violate the CCRs.

For what it's worth, in Florida, recalls are governed solely by statute and one's governing documents (CC&Rs and Bylaws) are irrelevant.
NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:205


06/30/2018 12:23 PM  
Our Constitution & bylaws along with our deed restricitons do not have any word or phrase talking about grandfathering in.

I also pulled up the 720, and searched for the word GRAND and it seems to not appear.

How am I to find out where the FL statue is about what is the procedure to grandfather ?
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:569


06/30/2018 12:50 PM  
Yep, 720 governs director recall - http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0720/Sections/0720.303.html

Majority of total voting interests ...
AugustinD


Posts:1088


06/30/2018 1:47 PM  
Posted By NoahA on 06/30/2018 12:23 PM
Our Constitution & bylaws along with our deed restricitons do not have any word or phrase talking about grandfathering in. I also pulled up the 720, and searched for the word GRAND and it seems to not appear. How am I to find out where the FL statue is about what is the procedure to grandfather ?


I think that nationwide, the HOA law on 'grandfathering' derives from the case law on 'equitable servitudes.' For example, where I live, if a covenant violation has existed for about seven years and the HOA does nothing about it, but then decides to try to enforce the covenant, and the dispute ends up in court, the HOA will likely lose in court.

"Grandfathering" also refers to situations where, under the former set of rules, no violation existed, but under new rules, a violation does exist. Fairness requires that where the situation existed prior to the new rules being enacted, the situation not be found in violation. This concept often applies to revisions of municipal and county ordinances. Though I think the latter tend to be explicit about the year (and all preceding years) where grandfathering begins.

You might find a few states that have explicit HOA statutes that address long-time violations and what each side's rights are.

Here is some good general discussion on grandfather in HOAs: https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Grandfather-Clause

Google on {grandfathering hoa} to turn up more guidance on this.
NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:205


06/30/2018 2:18 PM  
Thank you! I'm reading up on that now!
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2349


06/30/2018 7:17 PM  
Posted By NoahA on 06/30/2018 12:23 PM
Our Constitution & bylaws along with our deed restricitons do not have any word or phrase talking about grandfathering in.

I also pulled up the 720, and searched for the word GRAND and it seems to not appear.

How am I to find out where the FL statue is about what is the procedure to grandfather ?

You won't find it in any statute. Here are a couple of articles that might help your understanding.

http://www.poliakoffoncondohoaliving.com/2011/04/enforcing-covenants-rules-and-regulations-in-condos-and-hoas-the-concepts-of-waiver-and-selective-enforcement/

https://www.jimersoncobb.com/blog/2014/10/avoiding-selective-enforcement-defense-enforcing-condominium-association-rules-regulations/

Both articles are on Florida law firm websites and both discuss "grandfathering".
NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:205


06/30/2018 10:50 PM  
Wow thats some of the best info I've seen. I have been doing daily studying of all this, but that top link from 2011 really makes things clear.

Pretty good chance I'll get on the board in July or Oct, and I'm really feeling confident about things, and this grandfathering stuff was tricky, but after reading the above, its the only fair and logical way to pursue it.!!! thanks!!
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