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Subject: Canoe vs boat
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Author Messages
GlenM4
(Tennessee)

Posts:120


04/11/2018 9:38 AM  
we have rule that states:

Recreational vehicles, which include but ar not limited to boats, trailers, campers and motor homes, may be stored or parked only in a garage, and shall at all times be kept in a clean and slightly condition.


We have a homeowner with a canoe against his fence in his back yard. Another neighbor happen to see this and complained. I did look at it and it was not distasteful. my question is , is a canoe fit into this catagorie? I know it talks about boats, but a boat to me is a watercraft that has a motor.

your take on this?

AugustinD


Posts:1127


04/11/2018 9:57 AM  
A canoe is one type of boat. The dictionaries say similar.
DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1234


04/11/2018 10:13 AM  
Is the rule in the CCRs/deed restrictions, or just a rule passed by the board? If it is a board rule, then it's up to the board to clarify and/or enforce, and the board would have the power to modify.

Even if is in the CCRs, the board can pass resolutions/rules that clarify how the CCRs will be interpreted if there is ambiguity. If the board feels that the canoe is ok, they might be able to clarify that for purposes of enforcement, a "boat" will be a vessel that requires registration with the state, which in many states is only motor boats.

Of course, if this ever ends up in court, it's hard to say what the outcome would be. You could always get an opinion from the association attorney.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5767


04/11/2018 10:25 AM  
Glen wrote: "Recreational vehicles, which include but ar not limited to boats..." Your "rule" includes anything that is a rec vehicle. A canoe like a sailboat certainly is a boat. "Distasteful" isn't key here to my mind.
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3059


04/11/2018 11:16 AM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/11/2018 10:25 AM
Glen wrote: "Recreational vehicles, which include but ar not limited to boats..." Your "rule" includes anything that is a rec vehicle. A canoe like a sailboat certainly is a boat. "Distasteful" isn't key here to my mind.



What do all of the above have in common? Wheels. Canoes do not have wheels. If stored "out of sight" there should be no issue.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:7772


04/11/2018 12:21 PM  
Glen

Must or may be stored in a garage. Your post said may which does not mean must.

That aside, a canoe is a boat. Difference between a ship and a boat, is boats fit inside/on ships.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:510


04/11/2018 12:32 PM  
I would rewrite the CC&R's to say watercraft not just boats, because jet ski's and Seadoo's are types of boats as well. You are
going to have some noodle with a Catamaran stow it in his driveway and pitch a fit and say it's not a boat.

I have a Canoe, I could stow it in the garage, but I don't have enough room with two vehicles to hang it from the ceiling, so It's in the backyard sitting on
2 saw horses covered with a tarp. Unless Superman walks the community you cannot see it through a 6' blackball.

I could very well be that the owner is drying it out, but that's my opinion, boat and watercraft legally mean two different things..
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:15999


04/11/2018 1:30 PM  
Posted By GlenM4 on 04/11/2018 9:38 AM


your take on this?






Someone complained.
The Association investigated.
Per the CC&Rs specifying storage in the garage, this is a violation.

I agree that it's likely a stupid violation, but the Board can't waive covenants.
Therefore, you need to enforce.
DouglasM6
(Arizona)

Posts:724


04/11/2018 4:22 PM  
Did you have to look over the fence to see the canoe? Is it a chain link fence? Is the canoe visible without looking over a privacy fence? I need more info.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2435


04/11/2018 7:36 PM  
Posted By GlenM4 on 04/11/2018 9:38 AM
we have rule that states:

Recreational vehicles, which include but ar not limited to boats, trailers, campers and motor homes, may be stored or parked only in a garage, and shall at all times be kept in a clean and slightly condition.


We have a homeowner with a canoe against his fence in his back yard. Another neighbor happen to see this and complained. I did look at it and it was not distasteful. my question is , is a canoe fit into this catagorie? I know it talks about boats, but a boat to me is a watercraft that has a motor.

So a rowboat is not a boat?

If it can convey someone across a stretch of water then it's a boat, as far as I'm concerned. I'd categorize rafts as boats, too, for that matter.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:15999


04/11/2018 7:54 PM  


Here is some info:

7 Differences Between a Ship and a Boat From Marine Insight

What is the Difference Between a Boat, a Ship and a Vessel? from The Shipping Law Blog

Westlawn Institute of Marine Technology Definitions of: Boat, Yacht, Small Craft, and Related Terms

Military Terminology: Ship vs. Boat



Bottom line: The canoe is a boat.
GlenM4
(Tennessee)

Posts:120


04/12/2018 8:17 AM  
My thing is a boat needs registered in TN. Which is defined any watercraft that uses a motor to propell, not ores or paddels. With exception to sailboats.

Thus canoes would not fall into that catagorie.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5767


04/12/2018 8:48 AM  
It doesn't matter what your state says. Your CC&Rs say "boats" which must include all vessels that move on the water.
GlenM4
(Tennessee)

Posts:120


04/12/2018 8:54 AM  
It matters when defineing what is considered a boat. I would think. Surf boards go on water, skies go on water. Intertube. Lots of items can go on water and be a vessel right?
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3059


04/12/2018 9:05 AM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/12/2018 8:48 AM
It doesn't matter what your state says. Your CC&Rs say "boats" which must include all vessels that move on the water.



Doesn't matter what the state says...really??
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5767


04/12/2018 9:52 AM  
In this case, Richard, which is what we're talking about, I don't think it does. It's simply a state's definition. In this case the HOA can define it differently, imo. I still don't get your comment about "wheels" above.

Glen, I think most reasonable people would not confuse an inner tube, water skis, etc with a boat.
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3059


04/12/2018 10:51 AM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/12/2018 9:52 AM
In this case, Richard, which is what we're talking about, I don't think it does. It's simply a state's definition. In this case the HOA can define it differently, imo. I still don't get your comment about "wheels" above.

Glen, I think most reasonable people would not confuse an inner tube, water skis, etc with a boat.



Part of my job for the past 10 years is to enforce governing documents on behalf of the Associations that employ. Part of that task is also being able to interpret their meaning and possibly the intent in the language of the documents. If we can't come to a consensus, we take it to a higher authority.

In this instance, people here are making a mountain out of a molehill. The issue is the canoe was viable from the common area, PERIOD. If it had been stored laying on its belly out of view from the common area, what would the issue be. Something similar would be sheds. Governing docs that do allow them will generally have certain specs, either not visible from the common area or no taller than a certain height, why, uniformity. Isn't that what HOA's are, uniform?

In regards to the comment on wheels, here is his passage "Recreational vehicles, which include but are not limited to boats, trailers, campers and motor homes, may be stored or parked only in a garage, and shall at all times be kept in a clean and slightly condition". All of those vehicles are on wheels, and some supported with trailers. Outside of a trailer holding jet skis, I can't see storing ANY of the other vehicles in a garage, can you? It also has the word "may" and not "shall".

Sorry, IMO, this is piss poor language to try and enforce!
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5767


04/12/2018 11:48 AM  
The key word, Richard, as I explained to JohnC above is "only" not "may." Boats may be kept only in garages. Yes, the language is not good.
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3059


04/12/2018 12:13 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/12/2018 11:48 AM
The key word, Richard, as I explained to JohnC above is "only" not "may." Boats may be kept only in garages. Yes, the language is not good.



I would ask the owner is lay it on its belly, out of sight and be done with. There are bigger fish to fry and I believe the OP was alluding to that.
DouglasM6
(Arizona)

Posts:724


04/12/2018 2:11 PM  
Posted By GlenM4 on 04/12/2018 8:17 AM
My thing is a boat needs registered in TN. Which is defined any watercraft that uses a motor to propell, not ores or paddels. With exception to sailboats.

Thus canoes would not fall into that catagorie.





That's how you handle this exactly! You contact the game and fish, or whoever does the licensing in your state, and ask them for their "legal definition" of boat.

I'm going to ask the question again-

Do you have to look over a wall or privacy fence to see this canoe? What is the issue? That it can be seen, or that it's not in the garage? If it's laying in the back yard and you have to look over a fence to see it, leave it alone. if you can see it without having to look over the wall, then, if it's a "boat", it needs to be in the garage.
GlenM4
(Tennessee)

Posts:120


04/12/2018 2:25 PM  
Neighbor has to look over fence to see it.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:15999


04/12/2018 2:32 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/12/2018 11:48 AM
The key word, Richard, as I explained to JohnC above is "only" not "may." Boats may be kept only in garages. Yes, the language is not good.




Actually, I missed the word may. However, the word "only" implies that the garage is the only place to keep boats. Legalize that allows interpretation issue.

I agree with Richard that the intent was to keep things from being seen from the common area or, simply, the front of the house.
FredS7
(Arizona)

Posts:854


04/12/2018 4:39 PM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 04/12/2018 9:05 AM
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/12/2018 8:48 AM
It doesn't matter what your state says. Your CC&Rs say "boats" which must include all vessels that move on the water.



Doesn't matter what the state says...really??




Exactly. The CC&Rs contain a definition. It doesn't matter if there is a different definition in a dictionary or in international law or state law.

Also- the wording includes the phrase "not limited to" which means the board COULD decide some other type of recreational equipment must also be stored in a garage.

By the way, I believe the language "may...only" is equivalent to "must".

And it is my further opinion that a kayak is also a boat.
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:531


04/12/2018 5:08 PM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 04/11/2018 11:16 AM
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/11/2018 10:25 AM
Glen wrote: "Recreational vehicles, which include but ar not limited to boats..." Your "rule" includes anything that is a rec vehicle. A canoe like a sailboat certainly is a boat. "Distasteful" isn't key here to my mind.



What do all of the above have in common? Wheels. Canoes do not have wheels. If stored "out of sight" there should be no issue.



I'm not a boat expert but I have seen very few with wheels. If you are talking about trailers, then wouldn't you have to allow any boat that was not stored on a trailer if you allowed canoes for that reason?
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3059


04/12/2018 9:28 PM  
I also not a boat expert, but on or off a trailer, you not going to store 99% of the boats I see in a garage and I don't think most are going to fit in a pool. I once had a kayak and it would fit either in the garage or in the backyard, well out of view.
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:4151


04/13/2018 1:10 AM  
Posted By GlenM4 on 04/12/2018 8:54 AM
It matters when defineing what is considered a boat. I would think. Surf boards go on water, skies go on water. Intertube. Lots of items can go on water and be a vessel right?


If it goes to court it will be determined by what the court would consider as the definition. Potentially if you via the internet look up the definition of boat (unless potentially otherwise defined in your CCR’s) it will state: “a small vessel propelled on water by oars, sails, or an engine”. So ... exactly how is that canoe propelled???
GlenM4
(Tennessee)

Posts:120


04/13/2018 10:13 AM  
"exactly how is that canoe propelled??? "

manual man power.
DouglasM6
(Arizona)

Posts:724


04/13/2018 10:26 AM  
Posted By GlenM4 on 04/12/2018 2:25 PM
Neighbor has to look over fence to see it.





Tell the neighbor to stop looking over the fence.
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:4151


04/14/2018 10:32 AM  
Posted By GlenM4 on 04/13/2018 10:13 AM
"exactly how is that canoe propelled??? "

manual man power.


YEP ... using oars!!! Therefore, it is a boat to answer your question.
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:531


04/14/2018 1:42 PM  
You could argue this all day and I'm sure anyone can find a definition on the internet to support their claim. I would guess that a judge would follow the state code definition if a definition is not in the CC&Rs but we are all just guessing.

The best thing would be to talk to a lawyer in your jurisdiction to get an idea how a judge would determine the definition.

By the way, under the Tennessee code for Waters, Waterways, Drains And Levees, 69-9-204 a canoe is a boat.
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:531


04/14/2018 1:42 PM  
You could argue this all day and I'm sure anyone can find a definition on the internet to support their claim. I would guess that a judge would follow the state code definition if a definition is not in the CC&Rs but we are all just guessing.

The best thing would be to talk to a lawyer in your jurisdiction to get an idea how a judge would determine the definition.

By the way, under the Tennessee code for Waters, Waterways, Drains And Levees, 69-9-204 a canoe is a boat.
DouglasM6
(Arizona)

Posts:724


04/16/2018 12:33 PM  
Posted By FredS7 on 04/12/2018 4:39 PM
Posted By RichardP13 on 04/12/2018 9:05 AM
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/12/2018 8:48 AM
It doesn't matter what your state says. Your CC&Rs say "boats" which must include all vessels that move on the water.



Doesn't matter what the state says...really??




Exactly. The CC&Rs contain a definition. It doesn't matter if there is a different definition in a dictionary or in international law or state law.

Also- the wording includes the phrase "not limited to" which means the board COULD decide some other type of recreational equipment must also be stored in a garage.

By the way, I believe the language "may...only" is equivalent to "must".

And it is my further opinion that a kayak is also a boat.




There should be definitions section in the CC&R's and that is where you will find the answer. Just because the CC&R's say "boats" doesn't mean it's defined. If the State has a law that says "...all boats must be registered to be used on public waters...." and you call the State and they say you do not have to register a canoe, then in that particular state, it's not a boat.

That being said, the State probably uses verbiage such as watercraft instead of boat.

I still say to tell the nosy neighbor to stop looking over people's fences.
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