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Subject: Dogs
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Author Messages
GaryC15
(Texas)

Posts:6


02/02/2018 7:37 AM  
Our HOA in Aledo Texas requires dogs to be on leash , in less they are trained,A neighbor says hers is a certified service dog so he does not need to be on a leash, where can I find that law, thoughts ,Gary
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:2902


02/02/2018 7:54 AM  
While there is no statewide law in Texas requiring that dogs be on a leash at all times, Houston and many other cities in the state have enacted local laws requiring just that. This is especially important when dealing with dangerous dogs, or areas such as playgrounds where children are likely to be present.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5535


02/02/2018 9:01 AM  
If your HOA documents say dogs must on-leash unless trained, then that's what this owner must do whether service dog or not. But, maybe it's "trained." that word is very vague. Can your give us the exact language?
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:7635


02/02/2018 9:06 AM  
Kimchi goes nicely with Braised Dog along with a Hite Black Beer Stout....
DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1175


02/02/2018 10:24 AM  
Posted By GaryC15 on 02/02/2018 7:37 AM
Our HOA in Aledo Texas requires dogs to be on leash , in less they are trained,A neighbor says hers is a certified service dog so he does not need to be on a leash, where can I find that law, thoughts ,Gary


Ask your neighbor for documentation of that law. If they are going to claim something as law, put the burden on them to show there is one.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1175


02/02/2018 10:24 AM  
Posted By GaryC15 on 02/02/2018 7:37 AM
Our HOA in Aledo Texas requires dogs to be on leash , in less they are trained,A neighbor says hers is a certified service dog so he does not need to be on a leash, where can I find that law, thoughts ,Gary


Ask your neighbor for documentation of that law. If they are going to claim something as law, put the burden on them to show there is one.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
GaryC15
(Texas)

Posts:6


02/02/2018 10:35 AM  
Our by law says leashed or trained to follow the owner while being walked.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2291


02/02/2018 10:55 AM  
The word 'trained' is vague and sounds like a subjective, arbitrary interpretation of that word will cause problems unless it is carefully and precisely defined. In which case the word 'trained' should be replaced with the precise definition.
FredS7
(Arizona)

Posts:836


02/02/2018 1:26 PM  
A good definition of "trained" is "will not approach another person or animal unless directed to do so."

BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:525


02/02/2018 2:20 PM  
The leash laws and HOA rules do not apply to service animals. Under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) and the Fair Housing Act, service animals do not have to be trained or have any type of certification. The only requirement is that they perform a service for someone with a disability.

The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) generally does not apply to HOAs but the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), which administers the Fair Housing Act, has similar rules when it comes to service animals.

Under HUD, you can ask for a documentation of a disability, if it is not obvious, and you can ask what service the animal provides.

You do not have to allow an animal that is dangerous or causes physical damage.

https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/SERVANIMALS_NTCFHEO2013-01.PDF
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:525


02/02/2018 2:31 PM  
Posted By DouglasK1 on 02/02/2018 10:24 AM
Posted By GaryC15 on 02/02/2018 7:37 AM
Our HOA in Aledo Texas requires dogs to be on leash , in less they are trained,A neighbor says hers is a certified service dog so he does not need to be on a leash, where can I find that law, thoughts ,Gary


Ask your neighbor for documentation of that law. If they are going to claim something as law, put the burden on them to show there is one.



The HOA must follow the law. If they are ignorant of the law they need to get educated. It is not the member's burden to prove their rights, it is incumbent on the HOA not to violate rights.
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:525


02/02/2018 2:47 PM  
Here is a website with contact numbers for HUD regional offices. You can call with questions like this.

https://www.hud.gov/states/texas/offices

Since you are asking the question, I can tell you want to educate yourself and follow the law but I am just shaking my head at some of these responses. Most of them will put you in a losing lawsuit very quickly.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5535


02/02/2018 3:15 PM  
Thanks for the reference about service animals, Ben. I skimmed it and didn't see verbiage that says such dogs may be leash free.
Please tell me the page & paragraph number where this is stated.

I don't think anyone who replied has advised trying to kick the dog out of the HOA or cross-examining the dog owner about their needs, so there's been no mention of going to court.

Say, Gary, are you on the board? What is your interest in this matter?
GaryC15
(Texas)

Posts:6


02/02/2018 3:39 PM  
President, existing problem with these 2 German Shepard’s,they have been involved in a lawsuit and lost, Wonder if we need to re-write our policy on Animal,.the owner will not send me any papers. We have a good bit of documentation from the Sheiriff, we are taking picture and watching the dogs behavior. We know a law suit will happen so I will need to be ready to take the right action,this lady will not back off.
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:525


02/02/2018 3:59 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 02/02/2018 3:15 PM
Thanks for the reference about service animals, Ben. I skimmed it and didn't see verbiage that says such dogs may be leash free.
Please tell me the page & paragraph number where this is stated.

I don't think anyone who replied has advised trying to kick the dog out of the HOA or cross-examining the dog owner about their needs, so there's been no mention of going to court.

Say, Gary, are you on the board? What is your interest in this matter?



How dare you question me? (just kidding).
Apparently that document does not address whether or not the dog has to be on a leash. Here is the actual code:
§ 35.136 Service animals
(d) Animal under handler's control. A service animal shall be under the control of its handler. A service animal shall have a harness, leash, or other tether, unless either the handler is unable because of a disability to use a harness, leash, or other tether, or the use of a harness, leash, or other tether would interfere with the service animal's safe, effective performance of work or tasks, in which case the service animal must be otherwise under the handler's control (e.g., voice control, signals, or other effective means).

https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/titleII_2010/titleII_2010_withbold.htm

Even without the exceptions, a harness is all that is required. In my experience, most service dogs only have a harness with a handle. So, in effect, a leash is not required.

True, no one advocated kicking the dog out but here are just a couple of comments:

"Ask your neighbor for documentation of that law. If they are going to claim something as law, put the burden on them to show there is one."
"If your HOA documents say dogs must on-leash (sic) unless trained, then that's what this owner must do whether service dog or not."

Not exactly informed responses and potentially discriminatory, but that would be for a judge to decide.
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:525


02/02/2018 4:09 PM  
Posted By GaryC15 on 02/02/2018 3:39 PM
President, existing problem with these 2 German Shepard’s,they have been involved in a lawsuit and lost, Wonder if we need to re-write our policy on Animal,.the owner will not send me any papers. We have a good bit of documentation from the Sheiriff, we are taking picture and watching the dogs behavior. We know a law suit will happen so I will need to be ready to take the right action,this lady will not back off.



As mentioned above, the dog cannot be dangerous and must be controlled. The law and rules from HUD have a lot of loopholes but that is one thing they are pretty clear on. This is a sensitive subject and no one wants to end up on the news being accused of discriminating against the disabled, or worse end up in court. I would strongly recommend consulting with an attorney before taking action or at least call HUD and get their opinion. I attended a presentation by a HUD attorney who works out of the Ft. Worth office. He said that they have people available to answer questions if you call.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5535


02/02/2018 5:54 PM  
Ha! Ben. I admit to being uninformed about ways to manage dogs. But....isn't a harness with a handle like a leash??? It performs the same function? So... it seems to me that this code, § 35.136, fits Gary's HOA rules, yes?

Gary, you're saying there are two dogs and both are supposedly service dogs? Or? What was the legal action about involving them? And Ben's advice makes sense: that you consult an attorney. But, maybe you already have?

Do read Ben's entire citation--it's very useful.
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:525


02/02/2018 6:07 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 02/02/2018 5:54 PM
Ha! Ben. I admit to being uninformed about ways to manage dogs. But....isn't a harness with a handle like a leash??? It performs the same function? So... it seems to me that this code, § 35.136, fits Gary's HOA rules, yes?

Gary, you're saying there are two dogs and both are supposedly service dogs? Or? What was the legal action about involving them? And Ben's advice makes sense: that you consult an attorney. But, maybe you already have?

Do read Ben's entire citation--it's very useful.



I see your point.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:7635


02/03/2018 9:07 AM  
(d) Animal under handler's control. A service animal shall be under the control of its handler. A service animal shall have a harness, leash, or other tether, unless either the handler is unable because of a disability to use a harness, leash, or other tether, or the use of a harness, leash, or other tether would interfere with the service animal's safe, effective performance of work or tasks, in which case the service animal must be otherwise under the handler's control (e.g., voice control, signals, or other effective means).

As I read this: The animal must have a harness, leash, or other tether unless:

1. The handler is unable to use a harness, leash, or other tether as they (the handler) has a disability preventing using such.

2. The animal is unable to perform work or tasks due to being harnessed, leashed, or tethered.

If 1 and/or 2 is the situation, the animal must be under voice, signal, or other control.

So with the exception of 1 and/or 2, the animal must be harnessed, leashed, or other tethered and applicable to the OP's original qustion.



DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1175


02/05/2018 8:01 AM  
Posted By BenA2 on 02/02/2018 2:31 PM
Posted By DouglasK1 on 02/02/2018 10:24 AM
Posted By GaryC15 on 02/02/2018 7:37 AM
Our HOA in Aledo Texas requires dogs to be on leash , in less they are trained,A neighbor says hers is a certified service dog so he does not need to be on a leash, where can I find that law, thoughts ,Gary


Ask your neighbor for documentation of that law. If they are going to claim something as law, put the burden on them to show there is one.

The HOA must follow the law. If they are ignorant of the law they need to get educated. It is not the member's burden to prove their rights, it is incumbent on the HOA not to violate rights.


I agree that boards should be aware of relevant laws and follow them. The problem comes when people claim "it's the law", when maybe it isn't. Anybody can claim something is law, that doesn't mean it is one.

I could claim there is a law that says you have to pay me $5000, you certainly wouldn't go looking for it, you'd tell me to pound sand until I could prove it.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:2231


02/05/2018 9:28 AM  
Not only that, but if you're going to be a pet owner of any type - at least the ones with 4 legs that can walk - shouldn't YOU check with your vet or someone on what local law says about leasing the animal, required shots, cleaning up after your pet, etc., etc.? That's what RESPONSIBLE pet owners do and it's not that complicated. All they have to do is check with the local Animal Control, Humane society or perhaps a reputable pet store. Or just Google it, damn......
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:525


02/05/2018 10:20 AM  
Posted By DouglasK1 on 02/05/2018 8:01 AM
Posted By BenA2 on 02/02/2018 2:31 PM
Posted By DouglasK1 on 02/02/2018 10:24 AM
Posted By GaryC15 on 02/02/2018 7:37 AM
Our HOA in Aledo Texas requires dogs to be on leash , in less they are trained,A neighbor says hers is a certified service dog so he does not need to be on a leash, where can I find that law, thoughts ,Gary


Ask your neighbor for documentation of that law. If they are going to claim something as law, put the burden on them to show there is one.

The HOA must follow the law. If they are ignorant of the law they need to get educated. It is not the member's burden to prove their rights, it is incumbent on the HOA not to violate rights.


I agree that boards should be aware of relevant laws and follow them. The problem comes when people claim "it's the law", when maybe it isn't. Anybody can claim something is law, that doesn't mean it is one.

I could claim there is a law that says you have to pay me $5000, you certainly wouldn't go looking for it, you'd tell me to pound sand until I could prove it.



If someone stated there was a law that I was unfamiliar with, I would ask them where it can be found but, in the end, it is never someone's burden to prove that they are within their rights. When enforcing rules, the HOA has a responsibility to make sure they are following the law.

When it gets to court, the judge is only going to consider what the law is and won't care that you were not given proof of its existence.
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:525


02/05/2018 10:26 AM  
Posted By SheliaH on 02/05/2018 9:28 AM
Not only that, but if you're going to be a pet owner of any type - at least the ones with 4 legs that can walk - shouldn't YOU check with your vet or someone on what local law says about leasing the animal, required shots, cleaning up after your pet, etc., etc.? That's what RESPONSIBLE pet owners do and it's not that complicated. All they have to do is check with the local Animal Control, Humane society or perhaps a reputable pet store. Or just Google it, damn......



I agree but didn't see anything to indicate the owner did not know and follow all of the rules and laws. Also, assuming it is actually a service dog, it is not a pet.
GaryC15
(Texas)

Posts:6


02/05/2018 10:57 AM  
Thanks for your input,no more post,thanks Gary
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