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Subject: Are new owners in an HOA responsible for previous owners violations?
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DennisW8
(California)

Posts:4


08/31/2017 5:30 PM  
Recently my wife and I purchased a manufactured home in a gated senior HOA community in Oceanside, California. The first day we moved in we were confronted by an HOA representative who stated that there were building violations that needed to be addressed by us concerning the previous owner's patio deck repairs. We were never informed about this when we were in the process of buying the house. No member of the HOA and no real estate agent told us about patio repair violations. We later found out that the previous owner was well aware of these violations and waited until a week before closing to tell the HOA that he believed all of the violations had been removed. The HOA did not respond to his claim and still no one told us, the buyers, about these violations. Are we responsible for the previous owner's violations that we knew nothing about? Shouldn't the HOA have contacted the seller's real estate agent as soon as they saw the "for sale" sign go up? What about the real estate agent who is selling property in an HOA community but did not bother to consult the HOA before selling the house to us?
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:6650


08/31/2017 5:56 PM  
It is looked as the owner's responsibility to be informed. The CC&R's are on file at the courthouse and considered public documents. Those would have let you know much of what you were missing when you bought in a HOA.

Former HOA President
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:14509


08/31/2017 6:29 PM  
Contact your Realtor.

You may or may not be able to get out of the purchase agreement.
You may be able to bring legal action against the previous owner for failure to disclose.

However, you are responsible for the violations now.

Talk to the Board, explain the issue and the fact that you desire to comply.
Then work out an arrangement to give you time enough to do that.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:1889


08/31/2017 6:32 PM  
Generally, the new owner will be on the hook for correcting the violations if they weren't done before the house changes hands. The realtor may or may not have known either - unfortunately, some are more interested in the commission than providing complete information to the buyer. As crass as that sounds, it makes sense because the realtor represents the seller, not the buyer.

As for you, you may want to talk to an attorney to see what your state says about disclosing certain real estate issues. In my state, the law changed last year to require the seller to advise potential buyers that the house is in an HOA, amount of assessments and a few other things. If your state has such a law and you can prove the seller sold the house without telling you about the patio issue, you may be able to go after him or her to pay for repairing it.

By the way, the HOA doesn't necessarily have to tell you about violations either since you're not a member until you buy a house or condo. That's why it's a good idea to find out as much about the previous owner's relationship with the HOA before you buy. Since it's too late for that now, you may want to attend the next board meeting and explain what happened - hopefully, they'll be willing to work with you, although you may still end up paying to correct the problem.

JoyceR2
(Virginia)

Posts:101


08/31/2017 6:34 PM  
The HOA should have disclosed this as well. They should have performed an inspection and in doing so would have had full knowledge in addition to the fact they are privileged to the violations. Aside from that, the new owner may still need to correct it but the HOA holds responsibility as well.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:1446


08/31/2017 6:39 PM  
Lots of knowledgable people here from California and I'm sure they will chime in. Isn't there a "California Residential Purchase Agreement" used for most purchases? I've heard, but not confirmed, that there's a section in that agreement that HOA fees shall be paid current before closing. If the former owner was in default of their monetary obligations to the HOA then you should have been made aware of that. I'll stop now because I don't live in California. But I will add that in Florida a new owner may be held liable for a previous owner's HOA obligations and the buyer is generally responsible to do due diligence before the sale.

Both your real estate agent and your title insurance company should have known about the situation ahead of time. Maybe contact them and ask some questions. The HOA may just be attempting heavy-handed tactics and trying to scare you into paying regardless of whether or not you're actually responsible for the previous owner's obligations. Good luck and don't let it drag on too long.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:14509


08/31/2017 6:44 PM  
Posted By JoyceR2 on 08/31/2017 6:34 PM

The HOA should have disclosed this as well.




Such requirement varies by State
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:3355


08/31/2017 9:37 PM  
Posted By DennisW8 on 08/31/2017 5:30 PM
Recently my wife and I purchased a manufactured home in a gated senior HOA community in Oceanside, California. The first day we moved in we were confronted by an HOA representative who stated that there were building violations that needed to be addressed by us concerning the previous owner's patio deck repairs. We were never informed about this when we were in the process of buying the house. No member of the HOA and no real estate agent told us about patio repair violations. We later found out that the previous owner was well aware of these violations and waited until a week before closing to tell the HOA that he believed all of the violations had been removed. The HOA did not respond to his claim and still no one told us, the buyers, about these violations. Are we responsible for the previous owner's violations that we knew nothing about? Shouldn't the HOA have contacted the seller's real estate agent as soon as they saw the "for sale" sign go up? What about the real estate agent who is selling property in an HOA community but did not bother to consult the HOA before selling the house to us?


Contact your Title Insurance Company. Potentially the HOA was supposed to disclose any dues not yet paid and any items which were prior issues before the sale of the home which could affect the title of the property at that time. I remember a number of years ago on this site someone had bought a home which had the driveway added to in violation of the CCR's and the HOA after they purchased went after new owner. I told them to contact their Title Insurance Company ... and their Title Insurance went after the HOA. You are essentially supposed to get a clean title with no encumbrances not disclosed and then move forward. If the HOA did not disclose ... that potentially is their responsibility.
GeorgeR8
(Arizona)

Posts:116


09/01/2017 5:11 AM  
Posted By DennisW8 on 08/31/2017 5:30 PM
Recently my wife and I purchased a manufactured home in a gated senior HOA community in Oceanside, California. The first day we moved in we were confronted by an HOA representative who stated that there were building violations that needed to be addressed by us concerning the previous owner's patio deck repairs. We were never informed about this when we were in the process of buying the house. No member of the HOA and no real estate agent told us about patio repair violations. We later found out that the previous owner was well aware of these violations and waited until a week before closing to tell the HOA that he believed all of the violations had been removed. The HOA did not respond to his claim and still no one told us, the buyers, about these violations. Are we responsible for the previous owner's violations that we knew nothing about? Shouldn't the HOA have contacted the seller's real estate agent as soon as they saw the "for sale" sign go up? What about the real estate agent who is selling property in an HOA community but did not bother to consult the HOA before selling the house to us?




It is the responsibility of the owner to contact the HOA when they are going to sell. That doesn't always happen especially when they are trying to hide something.

We hardly ever have For Sale signs.

Did you meet with the board before closing? Many documents say that you must.



MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:6650


09/01/2017 6:20 AM  
Again, you can't really blame anyone but yourself when you buy a home. It's your responsibility to be informed. You hire a house inspector correct? Why? To find issues with the home on a physical level. You still buy it but 3 months later the faucets starts leaking. The seller never told you that there was a water pressure issue that blows out washers in the fixtures. House inspector not going to find that issue necessarily. So who do you blame?

Sorry it sounds heartless and not caring. However, it's one of those things about purchasing a home. Especially when it comes to HOA's. That is why they made the CC&R's and Articles of Incorporation PUBLIC documents. Everyone involved is going to tell you the same.

Former HOA President
DennisW8
(California)

Posts:4


09/01/2017 7:08 AM  
For you information we did get a copy of the CC&R. There was nothing about the previous owner's violations.
DennisW8
(California)

Posts:4


09/01/2017 7:11 AM  
Our realtor is going after the previous owner for the money to fix the patio and the gaping hole in the garage wall caused by the previous owner's neglect in fixing the roof. He claimed the roof was new. We found out from an expert that that was a lie. He covered up the damage in the garage by placing empty shelves over the garage closet that were only accessible by ladder.
DaveD3
(Michigan)

Posts:726


09/01/2017 9:04 AM  
Did you (or the title company) receive anything at/before closing from the HOA that stated the property was in good standing with no violations?
THAT is the golden ticket in this situation, and should be required by anyone seeking to purchase property in an HOA.
BancsS
(Iowa)

Posts:36


09/01/2017 9:43 AM  
Posted By DennisW8 on 09/01/2017 7:08 AM
For you information we did get a copy of the CC&R. There was nothing about the previous owner's violations.



The CC&R would not have disclosed the seller's violations. That is Melissa's standard answer and it is not correct. Also you would have to depend on the HOA keeping their documents up-to-date and on file at the court house. That is not always the case either. Hopefully your realtor can help resolve the issue with the seller for you.

I faced a similar situation on the purchase of a vacant lot. The seller was not what the HOA considered to be in good standing. We were in touch with the HOA every step of the way and this was not disclosed. Ultimately the HOA took responsibility for it but only after they spent thousands on legal fees. They final came to their senses. My situation was because of delinquent assessments not architectural violations.
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:3355


09/01/2017 7:50 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/01/2017 6:20 AM
Again, you can't really blame anyone but yourself when you buy a home. It's your responsibility to be informed. You hire a house inspector correct? Why? To find issues with the home on a physical level. You still buy it but 3 months later the faucets starts leaking. The seller never told you that there was a water pressure issue that blows out washers in the fixtures. House inspector not going to find that issue necessarily. So who do you blame? True that is why you hire a house inspector. However, that is also why you pay money for your Title Insurance. They are supposed to check out all items potentially attached to the Title of your Property. If there is an issue PRIOR to your purchase ... they are supposed to find and disclose any such issue. If something comes up which was not disclosed they are supposed to protect your rights via their legal counsel and costs. If I purchased and my Title Insurance company did not check out with an HOA wether or not there was a pending violation. It would be Katie Bar the Door. It would be a cold day down below before I and my familuy would be hel responsible for a prior owners infraction which I was not made aware of prior to purchase. Nor should any court of law take such a stand. When a For Sale sign goes up an HOA should make sure there are no violations which may need to be disclosed. If they do not that then should be their personal problem.

Sorry it sounds heartless and not caring. However, it's one of those things about purchasing a home. Especially when it comes to HOA's. That is why they made the CC&R's and Articles of Incorporation PUBLIC documents. Everyone involved is going to tell you the same. Agree with regards to the CCR's and moving forward ... however, the OP is discussing an item which the HOA did not properly disclose.

LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:237


09/01/2017 11:06 PM  
Posted By DennisW8 on 08/31/2017 5:30 PM
Recently my wife and I purchased a manufactured home in a gated senior HOA community in Oceanside, California. The first day we moved in we were confronted by an HOA representative who stated that there were building violations that needed to be addressed by us concerning the previous owner's patio deck repairs. We were never informed about this when we were in the process of buying the house. No member of the HOA and no real estate agent told us about patio repair violations. We later found out that the previous owner was well aware of these violations and waited until a week before closing to tell the HOA that he believed all of the violations had been removed. The HOA did not respond to his claim and still no one told us, the buyers, about these violations. Are we responsible for the previous owner's violations that we knew nothing about? Shouldn't the HOA have contacted the seller's real estate agent as soon as they saw the "for sale" sign go up? What about the real estate agent who is selling property in an HOA community but did not bother to consult the HOA before selling the house to us?





Did you have the home inspected prior to purchase? Contact your realtor and contact the title company, hopefully you have title insurance. This is something that should have been disclosed and was not.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:6802


09/02/2017 7:12 AM  
Let this be a lesson to all. If buying in an association, get a document from the association saying no violations, dues, fines, etc. are outstanding. Often called an Estoppel letter.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:6802


09/02/2017 7:15 AM  
A house inspector cannot be expected to know what an HOA would consider a violation As an example the inspector might well say the house paint is in great shape and could last for 10 years when the color is in violation of the HOA.
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:3355


09/03/2017 4:43 PM  
JohnC46 ... has it right especially for those states which do not have certain HOA disclosure statutes. It would also be good backup (even if have state laws) for everyone no matter the State Laws to have it in writing that the HOA has no pending issues with the property and that the property is in compliance with the CCR's along with no past HOA dues owed. It is a great CYA!!! Also, agree a home inspector would not be looking for HOA issues. It is beyond their scope of work.
CarlJ2
(Texas)

Posts:103


09/06/2017 9:55 AM  
This illustrates one of the issues with the HOA Governance Construct. It's in the HOA's best interest to not advise a buyer of outstanding violations unless law forces them to. Once you're under their Governance they have you locked in and subject to their will. Above all the HOA serves itself.
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:3355


09/06/2017 10:14 AM  
Posted By CarlJ2 on 09/06/2017 9:55 AM
This illustrates one of the issues with the HOA Governance Construct. It's in the HOA's best interest to not advise a buyer of outstanding violations unless law forces them to. Once you're under their Governance they have you locked in and subject to their will. Above all the HOA serves itself.


I would respectfully disagree ... if the HOA does disclose then the purchaser could put into their contract that those items need to be addressed and fixed by the current Owner before they purchase. OR they could agree to address themselves, which would put them on the hook via a contract. If items are not disclosed then potentially the HOA could not do anything in future to have corrected by a new owner. The HOA not properly addressing an issue with the individual who committed the offense ... does not make it a different innocent families liability when they knew nothing about the issue.
CarlJ2
(Texas)

Posts:103


09/06/2017 10:42 AM  
It's in the HOA's best interest because now they have a fresh owner to hold liable to the offence, and not the previous owner who sold. They can and will still force the current owner to pay to fix the issue because the current owner is now subject to the HOA's will. Therefore, I maintain that it is in the best interest of the HOA to not inform the new owners so they can get folks who are recently invested int he property to pay out. I concur that the new owners (our OP in this case) should have been informed what they were getting into. This does not serve the HOAs interest, however.
DouglasM6
(Arizona)

Posts:320


09/06/2017 11:10 AM  
Prior to a home selling in our neighborhood the HOA is asked to sign a form saying the lot is up to date and in compliance. Did you receive that? Check with the title company. As stated earlier, THAT is the golden ticket. If they signed that, there are no violations.
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:3355


09/06/2017 3:20 PM  
In California the OP should have received:

https://www.davis-stirling.com/Main-Index/Statutes/Civil-Code-4525#axzz2CR2ljirY

(5) A copy or a summary of any notice previously sent to the owner pursuant to Section 5855 that sets forth any alleged violation of the governing documents that remains unresolved at the time of the request. .....

DaveD3
(Michigan)

Posts:726


09/06/2017 7:04 PM  
Posted By JanetB2 on 09/06/2017 3:20 PM
In California the OP should have received:

https://www.davis-stirling.com/Main-Index/Statutes/Civil-Code-4525#axzz2CR2ljirY

(5) A copy or a summary of any notice previously sent to the owner pursuant to Section 5855 that sets forth any alleged violation of the governing documents that remains unresolved at the time of the request. .....




Does Davis-Sterling say what happens if they were NOT given that?
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:3355


09/06/2017 8:41 PM  
Posted By DaveD3 on 09/06/2017 7:04 PM
Posted By JanetB2 on 09/06/2017 3:20 PM
In California the OP should have received:

https://www.davis-stirling.com/Main-Index/Statutes/Civil-Code-4525#axzz2CR2ljirY

(5) A copy or a summary of any notice previously sent to the owner pursuant to Section 5855 that sets forth any alleged violation of the governing documents that remains unresolved at the time of the request. .....



Does Davis-Sterling say what happens if they were NOT given that?


It is listed as part of the Disclosures per Davis-Sterling as listed in the link ... the OP would need to consult an attorney because potentially violating this could also violate other laws not listed under the HOA Statutes ... such as Real Estate Statute of Frauds. We offer our opinions based on what is essentially public information and how much time we have. Sorry ... I currently do not currently have the time to royally chase down all the many links between the laws on this issue. If something pops in my mind I can quickly look ... but to do a paralegal type statute search takes time.

In my state for instance if you see the words "shall not" or "shall" play close attention because potentially especially if you violate the "shall not" you could be violating many other laws ... including criminal. In my state for a developer when they violate the "shall not" under 38-33.3-217(III)(E) ... they actually potentially violate criminal statues such as Theft of Contract and Real Estate Statute of Fraud. Essentially when anyone is reading statutes ... "shall not" is similar to "will not", "must not", "cannot" ... and there is most likely a very good reason for stating not to violate.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:6802


09/07/2017 6:49 AM  
Posted By JanetB2 on 09/06/2017 10:14 AM
Posted By CarlJ2 on 09/06/2017 9:55 AM
This illustrates one of the issues with the HOA Governance Construct. It's in the HOA's best interest to not advise a buyer of outstanding violations unless law forces them to. Once you're under their Governance they have you locked in and subject to their will. Above all the HOA serves itself.


I would respectfully disagree ... if the HOA does disclose then the purchaser could put into their contract that those items need to be addressed and fixed by the current Owner before they purchase. OR they could agree to address themselves, which would put them on the hook via a contract. If items are not disclosed then potentially the HOA could not do anything in future to have corrected by a new owner. The HOA not properly addressing an issue with the individual who committed the offense ... does not make it a different innocent families liability when they knew nothing about the issue.




Carl has a point if an HOA wanted to be self serving and mistreat its owners which is Carl's belief about HOA's. His point of view is self serving and wrong in probably well over 99% of HOA's.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:14509


09/07/2017 7:46 AM  
Posted By CarlJ2 on 09/06/2017 10:42 AM

Therefore, I maintain that it is in the best interest of the HOA to not inform the new owners so they can get folks who are recently invested int he property to pay out.




I disagree.

The issue is far more likely to be fixed with pressure from the buyer.

Example:

HOA provides info that there is x violations on the property.
Buyer tells seller to fix the issue or provide an allowance so they can fix the issue.

Even if the Buyer walks away, it can be an indication to the seller to get the issue resolved for the next buyer.
CarlJ2
(Texas)

Posts:103


09/07/2017 8:14 AM  
Sure, Tim, and in either case in your example the HOA wins. I don't see the difference.
BillH10
(Texas)

Posts:138


09/07/2017 8:26 AM  
Carl, referring back to your post of late yesterday regarding disclosure of violations.

In Texas the Resale Certificate which must be provided to the title company for communication to the prospective buyer requires that known violations be disclosed by the Association. That information is made available to the buyer by the title company when it provides Association documents during the 10 day window mandated in Texas. It has been our experience the title company will not close until the management company or Association has communicated that the reported violations have been corrected or otherwise satisfactorily addressed.

One of our management company business rules is we immediately conduct a review of a property when we first learn it has been listed for sale. Generally we observe the sign in the lawn, other times we receive a note from a member of the board or a neighbor asking if we know if such and such address is listed for sale. Our contract requires twice monthly reviews of our client properties so generally we, the Association, and the owner, are well aware of any violations prior to a resale review.

Upon completion of the review, we send a letter to the owner stating the review had been conducted and either no issues were found or we list any outstanding items, well before we receive a request from the title company for the resale certificate package. This provides the seller an opportunity to address the issue before we have to disclose an outstanding violation on the Resale Certificate.

Therefore, at least in Texas, it behooves the Association to disclose outstanding violations so that the seller can have them corrected.
JM10
(California)

Posts:503


09/07/2017 12:48 PM  
First, get everything in writing.

The previous owner stated that these violations had been removed. You need to get that in writing. You need to ask for past minutes from the meetings and violation notices. Look at each violation.

You need to ask if the violations were known to the real estate agent for the previous owner in a letter and get a response in writing. You might ask for proof of the repairs (receipt). You need to ask your real estate agent if he/she was aware of it and get the response in writing.

You need to determine if there were public papers stating that the person was in violation such as small claims court. If there are papers filed in small claims court, then you and/or your real estate agent didn't do due diligence. However, California has a full disclosure code.

You are not responsible for any violations, but you need to consult with a lawyer after you determine the cost of making those repairs (and get at least one written estimate, but three are better with people approved/recommended by your HOA or their management and be sure those people have proper credentials--don't add to your problems) and then decide with your lawyer if you still want the unit with the repairs. You need to go after the previous owner.

I would recommend that when one buys into a HOA, one should check court records and even do an internet search. There are things we did not tell the person who bought our condo because we had listed them in a complaint that was public knowledge and we also got the HOA Board of Directors to assure us they would not continue violations. So we made sure when we sold that every violation the HOA board had been doing was addressed and covered. The person who bought our place at a very low price didn't get a deal, but the court papers should indicate the board had problems--three court cases that it lost in less than six months before we sold.





JM10
(California)

Posts:503


09/07/2017 12:53 PM  
We had something similar happen to the home we bought. Furniture, etc. strategically placed.

DouglasM6
(Arizona)

Posts:320


09/07/2017 3:26 PM  
Posted By CarlJ2 on 09/07/2017 8:14 AM
Sure, Tim, and in either case in your example the HOA wins. I don't see the difference.




When you say "win" you mean the property is repaired so there are no violations, right? If that's what you call a win for the HOA, then I agree. It's not like there's a trophy or anything. If people would abide by the agreement they made in the first pace none of this would have to happen.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:14509


09/07/2017 3:30 PM  
Posted By CarlJ2 on 09/07/2017 8:14 AM
Sure, Tim, and in either case in your example the HOA wins. I don't see the difference.




Well, in your scenario it sounds like the Association is out to stick it to the new owner.

In my scenario the Association is simply attempting to have the violations brought into compliance with the contract (deed restrictions) the seller agreed to when they purchased the property.

Perspective would be the difference.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:14509


09/07/2017 3:32 PM  
BTW - in Virginia not only does the Association have to make a statement regarding violations on the property (do they exist or not) but the Association is legally bound to that statement if they happen to miss a violation.
CarlJ2
(Texas)

Posts:103


09/07/2017 4:19 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 09/07/2017 3:30 PM
Posted By CarlJ2 on 09/07/2017 8:14 AM
Sure, Tim, and in either case in your example the HOA wins. I don't see the difference.




Well, in your scenario it sounds like the Association is out to stick it to the new owner.

In my scenario the Association is simply attempting to have the violations brought into compliance with the contract (deed restrictions) the seller agreed to when they purchased the property.

Perspective would be the difference.





I suppose so. The HOA gets their money and the sale goes through. Then the HOA has a new owner from which they collect their payment each month (or quarter).
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