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Subject: Thoughts on our HOA president (first post!)
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Author Messages
JonathanR1
(Georgia)

Posts:49


09/04/2017 3:51 PM  
Posted By JanetB2 on 09/04/2017 3:47 PM
(b) Action taken without a meeting shall be taken by all members of the board, unless the articles or bylaws specifically permit such action to be taken by less than all, but not less than a majority of the board. The action must be evidenced by one or more consents in writing or by electronic transmission describing the action taken, signed by no fewer than the required number of directors, and delivered to the corporation for inclusion in the minutes for filing with the corporate records reflecting the action taken. Such filing shall be in paper form if the minutes are maintained in paper form and shall be in electronic form if the minutes are maintained in electronic form.

You stated that not all agreed ... do your Bylaws "specifically" allow less votes via email?




The bylaws do not address email at all. I'm wondering if our lawyer is trying to construe that section of the code about voice conferencing as good enough to say that meeting has been taken somewhere in our outside of GA. Also, the bylaws do not say anything about action without meeting or how one can meet outside of a normal meeting.
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:3642


09/04/2017 7:49 PM  
Keep in mind it is not YOUR lawyer ... the lawyer represents your Management Company. The attorney represents and will state what they believe is in the best interest of their "client" and which is the Management Company.
JonathanR1
(Georgia)

Posts:49


09/04/2017 8:40 PM  
Does the management company really care if we're not following the rules? The management company is just a contracted service, and I would assume that they don't have a whole lot to lose. Unless, of course, the association goes to shit I suppose.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:4374


09/04/2017 8:51 PM  
I'm beginning to think, Janet, that Jonathan sees what he wants to see...????
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:3642


09/04/2017 9:01 PM  
Posted By JonathanR1 on 09/04/2017 8:40 PM
Does the management company really care if we're not following the rules? The management company is just a contracted service, and I would assume that they don't have a whole lot to lose. Unless, of course, the association goes to shit I suppose.

That is for you and the rest of your Board to decide. What you have to keep in mind is if anything happens the BUCK stops with the BOARD! The Management Company is an EMPLOYEE of the Board and therefore the Board is supposed to oversee your Management Company. An Owner will not sue your Management Company ... they will sue the HOA for any major issues.
JonathanR1
(Georgia)

Posts:49


09/05/2017 10:21 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/04/2017 8:51 PM
I'm beginning to think, Janet, that Jonathan sees what he wants to see...????




No, I'm just trying to be very sure that we're actually going against GA code. I DID actually read "Your description of circumstances would fail under the first statute noted above." as "...would fall under the first statute...", as I thought it was a typo, though.

Now, okay, given that it sounds like everyone here is confident that we're violating GA code and that the lawyers do not necessarily care (although can't they get in trouble for providing incorrect legal advice if someone were to come around and sue the Board, who received advice from said lawyers?). What can I really do about it? And I'm not being facetious. Do I tell the President that everything we've been doing has been suspect? The guy blocks me and has SOMETHING to say at every suggestion that I have, so this will be an afront to him. I'm sure they would bring it up to the MC if I pitched a fit, but they would back up the President/board members on his side. In addition, they have enough "yes men/women" that in reality, if we did meet instead of do the emails, 9/10 of our votes would pass by majority vote.

I obviously wouldn't want to resign either.

Maybe my question is what is the actual point of forbidding actions without meetings? If 4/7 board members OK something via email instead of in person, what's being lost? Again, not being facetious, as this is legit my first time on a Board.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:14854


09/05/2017 10:51 PM  
Posted By JonathanR1 on 09/05/2017 10:21 PM

If 4/7 board members OK something via email instead of in person, what's being lost?




Transparancy
JonathanR1
(Georgia)

Posts:49


09/05/2017 10:56 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 09/05/2017 10:51 PM

Transparancy




True, but I worry that our development doesn't care. We legit had 2 people show up at the annual meeting, in addition to the board, out of 130 houses or so. I really do wonder if people would even notice if our reserve fund just went belly up one day.

By the way, oh my god, we have an annual budget of about $50k, and apparently, when you add up all the unpaid dues + interest, we're owed $39k in delinquent balances. We've apparently been forced to write off thousands of dollars because of the previous board's lack of giving a damn for years as well, with many debts becoming written off due to statutes of limitation.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:6784


09/06/2017 5:06 AM  
That is not unusual in a HOA. Not sure what statue of limitations would apply here. Don't believe that applies to a HOA on things like not paying dues. Fines yes, but unpaid dues not so much. May need to write them off because the owner that owed money sold and moved on without paying. If your HOA never put a lien on the property, then that is what happens.

We have a 6 months we lien, 1 year behind we CONSIDER foreclosure policy. Which is how we don't have the issues with randomly picking someone to target. With such a policy you can weed out those in protest, ignorance, or can't afford to pay dues. Plus at 6 months it covers the expense for us to file a lien.

Not sure if you have the actual grasp on how a HOA budget works. There is to be no profit. If your HOA collected all that money owed in one lump sum, it's just filling a hole. It's not a profit or extra money. It's always been money owed/money lost.


Former HOA President
JonathanR1
(Georgia)

Posts:49


09/06/2017 7:22 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/06/2017 5:06 AM
That is not unusual in a HOA. Not sure what statue of limitations would apply here. Don't believe that applies to a HOA on things like not paying dues. Fines yes, but unpaid dues not so much. May need to write them off because the owner that owed money sold and moved on without paying. If your HOA never put a lien on the property, then that is what happens.

We have a 6 months we lien, 1 year behind we CONSIDER foreclosure policy. Which is how we don't have the issues with randomly picking someone to target. With such a policy you can weed out those in protest, ignorance, or can't afford to pay dues. Plus at 6 months it covers the expense for us to file a lien.

Not sure if you have the actual grasp on how a HOA budget works. There is to be no profit. If your HOA collected all that money owed in one lump sum, it's just filling a hole. It's not a profit or extra money. It's always been money owed/money lost.





The board's president said that the previous boards simply waited too long on certain properties. Others were situations where the owner did move. And yes, they never put liens down.

We agreed to change our policy to 1 year = send in the lawyers. I'm guessing that's not as effective as your policy, but it sounds like we're at least on a better path than before.

I didn't mean to imply that we were trying to profit. However, when we don't receive $40k from a group of members, we have to raise dues (which is exactly what has happened) on members who do pay to keep up with our maintenance bills. Our expenses aren't exactly pegged to revenue.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:6784


09/06/2017 3:35 PM  
Send in lawyers to do what exactly? A lawsuit is a bad idea to collect back dues. Liens/foreclosures are the way to go for them. Keep in mind your time frame here. You don't foreclose on a home that the bank is already foreclosing on. Banks believe start foreclosing at around 1 year of unpaid mortgage payments. It's logical to think one not paying their mortgage isn't going to pay their dues either. So waiting a year to "send in the lawyers" may be a late point in some cases. Now if your HOA pay only annually then 1 year period makes sense. However, a monthly paying HOA should consider a shorter time line to start taking action of non-payers.

A lawsuit doesn't hold an owner's feet to the ground. Liens they can't sell until the debt is paid off and it accumulates over time. A lawsuit is a judgement that has to be renewed after a certain amount of time if not paid. Which the owner can simply sell and move without ever paying a dime. Who's going to remember in 5 years to pursue this debt? Plus the HOA isn't entitled to one's social security number. Which means certain collection practices like wages reductions may not work. Foreclosures ONLY stop the bleeding.

Debt collection can often cost more to pursue than leaving the debt. So it's often a judgement or situational call when it's worth the effort.

Former HOA President
JonathanR1
(Georgia)

Posts:49


09/06/2017 4:18 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/06/2017 3:35 PM
Send in lawyers to do what exactly? A lawsuit is a bad idea to collect back dues. Liens/foreclosures are the way to go for them. Keep in mind your time frame here. You don't foreclose on a home that the bank is already foreclosing on. Banks believe start foreclosing at around 1 year of unpaid mortgage payments. It's logical to think one not paying their mortgage isn't going to pay their dues either. So waiting a year to "send in the lawyers" may be a late point in some cases. Now if your HOA pay only annually then 1 year period makes sense. However, a monthly paying HOA should consider a shorter time line to start taking action of non-payers.

A lawsuit doesn't hold an owner's feet to the ground. Liens they can't sell until the debt is paid off and it accumulates over time. A lawsuit is a judgement that has to be renewed after a certain amount of time if not paid. Which the owner can simply sell and move without ever paying a dime. Who's going to remember in 5 years to pursue this debt? Plus the HOA isn't entitled to one's social security number. Which means certain collection practices like wages reductions may not work. Foreclosures ONLY stop the bleeding.

Debt collection can often cost more to pursue than leaving the debt. So it's often a judgement or situational call when it's worth the effort.




That's just generally what we say when we decide to do anything regarding back dues. Of course, that's actually another problem, since the HOA doesn't even send letters saying that people need to pay. They actually have lawyers, not the MC, send those letters... at whatever lovely rate they charge us. So, by that, I mean they sent the mean sounding letter and then go for liens.

Also, you're forgetting people who just don't pay dues because there are no repercussions. We've legit had people who have lived in the development for years and have NEVER paid dues.
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:3642


09/06/2017 5:23 PM  
Sound like your HOA needs some work ... you cannot go after a few for not paying and let others slide for years. It will come back and haunt you big time if the HOA ever gets sued for anything. You need to bring everyone up to date, even if those who have not paid for years make payments on their back amount owed. Keep in mind governing documents and State Laws require the HOA debt to be divided and paid equally between everyone as stated in those documents. You need to bill everyone for what they owe and place liens on the properties. That way if they sell any amount still owed needs to be paid to the association, before they leave and you cannot pursue them. Then set them up on payment plan where they pay current dues + x amount towards past due amount owed.
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:3642


09/06/2017 5:38 PM  
When you stated:

"The board's president said that the previous boards simply waited too long on certain properties. Others were situations where the owner did move. And yes, they never put liens down."

Potentially you cannot wait too long in an HOA unless the Owner has sold and moved away. The annual budget and dues information is sent to all owners each year before your Annual Meeting. They have been given notice, a meeting to attend if not like what is being proposed, and required per the CCR's to pay their assessments which they agreed to when they purchased their property. Just because they have not paid and been ignored until now does not mean they do not legally owe the money.

BTW ... You do understand that you and your fellow Board members can potentially replace any "Officer" position on the Board (unless your documents specifically do not allow). You cannot replace another Board member as they are elected by the membership; however, Officer positions are generally determined by all other Board members. If someone is not properly performing their Officer position job then the other members need to seriously consider replacing with someone else.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:14854


09/06/2017 7:03 PM  
Posted By JanetB2 on 09/06/2017 5:38 PM
When you stated:

"The board's president said that the previous boards simply waited too long on certain properties. Others were situations where the owner did move. And yes, they never put liens down."

Potentially you cannot wait too long in an HOA unless the Owner has sold and moved away.




Actually, depending on lien laws (varies by States) there could be a timeline based on when the debt first occurred.

However, nothing prevents the Association from going after the owner for several years of past due assessments. The courts, if it goes that far, will make the decision regarding limitations.
JonathanR1
(Georgia)

Posts:49


09/06/2017 7:33 PM  
Posted By JanetB2 on 09/06/2017 5:38 PM
When you stated:

"The board's president said that the previous boards simply waited too long on certain properties. Others were situations where the owner did move. And yes, they never put liens down."

Potentially you cannot wait too long in an HOA unless the Owner has sold and moved away. The annual budget and dues information is sent to all owners each year before your Annual Meeting. They have been given notice, a meeting to attend if not like what is being proposed, and required per the CCR's to pay their assessments which they agreed to when they purchased their property. Just because they have not paid and been ignored until now does not mean they do not legally owe the money.




This is one of these situations where even if you're right, the rest of the board would fight me if I brought it up, and the MC would also fight it. Unfortunately.

Posted By JanetB2 on 09/06/2017 5:38 PM
BTW ... You do understand that you and your fellow Board members can potentially replace any "Officer" position on the Board (unless your documents specifically do not allow). You cannot replace another Board member as they are elected by the membership; however, Officer positions are generally determined by all other Board members. If someone is not properly performing their Officer position job then the other members need to seriously consider replacing with someone else.




The problem is that the three board positions actually outlined in the by-laws are me, the president, and the secretary. The president and secretary are friends, along with the vice-president (although the VP's position they just made up). The people who actually support me are officers.
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:3642


09/06/2017 9:02 PM  
Well ... you have me a bit confused here with your statement:

"The problem is that the three board positions actually outlined in the by-laws are me, the president, and the secretary. The president and secretary are friends, along with the vice-president (although the VP's position they just made up). The people who actually support me are officers."

So ... How many total Board positions do you have ... elected by the Membership? I see potentially 3 (YOU and two others). Are there more?

I see for sure that one Board Member is the President and One Board Member is the Secretary. So what are you? Are you the VP or is someone else been placed in that position?

When you state ... "The people who actually support me are officers." Are you referring to the President and Secretary "who are friends"? Or, are you referring to others?



JonathanR1
(Georgia)

Posts:49


09/07/2017 4:55 AM  
Posted By JanetB2 on 09/06/2017 9:02 PM
Well ... you have me a bit confused here with your statement:

"The problem is that the three board positions actually outlined in the by-laws are me, the president, and the secretary. The president and secretary are friends, along with the vice-president (although the VP's position they just made up). The people who actually support me are officers."

So ... How many total Board positions do you have ... elected by the Membership? I see potentially 3 (YOU and two others). Are there more?




In going through our bylaws, we specifically have 3 positions outlined: President, Treasurer (me), and Secretary. We are also allowed to establish positions for other officers as we see fit (e.g., Vice President). When the board was created this year, we didn't have a quorum, so what ended up happening was that we basically dived up the positions. We had an actual election between the 8 or so people that attended to vote in the President. Secretary was basically the gal saying she'd do it, and I asked to be treasurer. Specifically, only the President was actually voted in by us 8 or so. The other 4 members of the board were basically chosen as "Anyone else want to be on the board? Yeah? Welcome to the board!".


Posted By JanetB2 on 09/06/2017 9:02 PM
When you state ... "The people who actually support me are officers." Are you referring to the President and Secretary "who are friends"? Or, are you referring to others?





The people who support me are 2 people included in that group of 4 mentioned above who were basically just there at the meeting and wanted to be on the board. 3 don't really have official titles (I think we said we'd call them "members at large"), and 1 is the vice-president, although we kind of just made up that title for convenience.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:6784


09/07/2017 3:28 PM  
Odd your HOA would not have a defined Vice-President position. Our Articles of Incorporation documentation listed the positions and their duties. Although will say the Vice-President job was a bit of a "flake" position. Their main duty was just to take over meetings if President could not make it. Plus being Vice-President doesn't automatically make you President if the President was to quit. It's just a position like any other.

So does your documents not have the positions and responsibilities in it?

Former HOA President
DouglasM6
(Arizona)

Posts:434


09/07/2017 3:32 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/07/2017 3:28 PM
Odd your HOA would not have a defined Vice-President position. Our Articles of Incorporation documentation listed the positions and their duties. Although will say the Vice-President job was a bit of a "flake" position. Their main duty was just to take over meetings if President could not make it. Plus being Vice-President doesn't automatically make you President if the President was to quit. It's just a position like any other.





So is it a "fake" position or a position like any other?
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:6784


09/07/2017 3:53 PM  
I said "Flake" position not "Fake". It's not got any real responsibilities in our HOA other than taking the meeting if President is absent. Otherwise nothing to be responsible for. Secretary is to keep up with the ownership records/meeting notes. The President could not act as the Secretary. Treasurer was to make financial report.


Former HOA President
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:7007


09/07/2017 4:34 PM  
When we had a BOD of 3, the VP and Treasurer were the same person. Me. It works. Generally, the Secretary and President cannot be the same person.

JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:3642


09/07/2017 9:50 PM  
Johnathan ... How many Board of Directors is your Membership supposed to elect each year at your Annual Meeting??? While you can add however many Officers potentially as your documents allow ... you cannot arbitrarily add Directors (unless filling a position if such as someone resigned). Also, keep in mind ONLY the Directors can vote ... Other BOD appointed Officers do not have the right to vote on issues.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:14854


09/07/2017 10:52 PM  
Keep in mind that Directors and Officers are two different positions.

A Board may have as many Officers as they feel they need.
Statutes and governing documents will specify the minimum Officers required.

Directors and Officers attend Board meetings.
Only Directors get a vote.

Officers implement the decisions of the Directors.
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