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Subject: Gated community
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Author Messages
KennyD1
(Texas)

Posts:51


07/24/2007 11:16 AM  
Anyone have information of turning a non-gated community to a gated community.
Cost, Permits, Pros, Cons, Paperwork, ect....
RobertG
(Arizona)

Posts:505


07/24/2007 11:53 AM  
As a member of a gated community, I would ask why you want to do this?
JoeW1
(New York)

Posts:728


07/24/2007 12:14 PM  
KennyD1 - Is your gate manned 24/7, or does it have a keypad system? Curious the reason for opting out of the status, and higher level of security that a well-run gated community can provide. The biggest "Con" can be a reduction in the sale prices of homes. Even though a gate has it's security flaws, there is an undeniable prestige value that translates into higher resale values. The biggest "Pro" can be an increase in the amount transferred to other budget items due to the reduction in the gate line item. I would tread very carefully with the residents on this topic. Meaning, where is the push for gate removal coming from, is it from the owners on an owner level, or an owner who has an agenda that is on the Board.
RobertG
(Arizona)

Posts:505


07/24/2007 12:17 PM  
Posted By JoeW1 on 07/24/2007 12:14 PM
KennyD1 - Is your gate manned 24/7, or does it have a keypad system? Curious the reason for opting out of the status, and higher level of security that a well-run gated community can provide. The biggest "Con" can be a reduction in the sale prices of homes. Even though a gate has it's security flaws, there is an undeniable prestige value that translates into higher resale values. The biggest "Pro" can be an increase in the amount transferred to other budget items due to the reduction in the gate line item. I would tread very carefully with the residents on this topic. Meaning, where is the push for gate removal coming from, is it from the owners on an owner level, or an owner who has an agenda that is on the Board.



I think you have it backwards. He wants go from non-gated to gated.
Jadedone4
(Virginia)

Posts:495


07/24/2007 12:18 PM  
Question for all, I understand the physical element of "enclosing a community" with a gate, however does this in anyway impact on the CC&R's as filed with locals?

I would assume that the "line" between what the community is responsible for, and what the local municipality is responsible for, are already drawn, but are there any other deed restrictive elements to consider when making such a move?
RobertG
(Arizona)

Posts:505


07/24/2007 12:20 PM  
Posted By Jadedone4 on 07/24/2007 12:18 PM
Question for all, I understand the physical element of "enclosing a community" with a gate, however does this in anyway impact on the CC&R's as filed with locals?

I would assume that the "line" between what the community is responsible for, and what the local municipality is responsible for, are already drawn, but are there any other deed restrictive elements to consider when making such a move?



We live in the gate portion of a larger community. The same CC&Rs apply to all. There are a few paragraphs that specify what a gated area is and what those residents are responsible for. If the gated community was not there, the CC&Rs would not be much different.
JoeW1
(New York)

Posts:728


07/24/2007 12:47 PM  
RobertG - You are so right, I do have it backwards. That beckons a question to you on your reply. Not thrilled with the gated provision of your HOA?
JoeW1
(New York)

Posts:728


07/24/2007 12:55 PM  
KennyD1 - Sorry I had it backwards on what you were trying to accomplish. My pros and cons would still remain the same however. Cost varies, however my living in a gated community with 24/hr manned attendant and an entrance and exit gate/arm the cost is apprx. $138,000.00 per year or $54.00 per unit owner per month, or $1.77 per unit owner per day. The benefit is an increase in property value of $100,000.00 plus derived from market research of comparable communities in the immediate vicinity without the gated provision. Some even have much better pools, clubhouses, and landscaping than we have. You may have to circumvent some push back from the borough because your roads will not be dedicated to public use to everyone outside of the HOA.
RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:4890


07/24/2007 1:02 PM  
Kenny,
The first thing you would need to do is convince the govenmental agency to whom the streets were dedicated to return ownership to the association. This may or may not be possible and if improvements were made to the road it could get expense.

Then if you suceeded in making the streets private privacy gates could be installed.

The pros include more privacy from traffic and higher property values.

The big con is much higher expenses. Maintaining streets is expensive. One association of single family homes on lots of which I am aware pays about $2000 per year as compared to a similar ungated community paying $600. Then there are matters such as access for trash collection, contractors, fire and police. Privacy gates are not security gates and there can be a higher burglary rate since these attract theives. Gate guards are not recommended; gate cameras are highly recommended.
JoeW1
(New York)

Posts:728


07/24/2007 1:32 PM  
RogerB - Who doesn't recommend gate guards? We have gate guards 24/7, extremely effective. We also have a camera and monitor screen with video tape provided free from the security company to capture the license plate as each car enters in the event of a breach. My opinion regarding guards is that the human intervention, as opposed to an automated system keeps the traffic flowing at the front entrance. It also allows the guards to call the unit for to announce the wish for unauthorized guests to be granted access. As for trash collection, fires, and police those services can not be denied a qualified private community, otherwise it's double taxation because the municipal services are part of owners taxes. Though it will be a formality that should be discussed and agreed to in writing with the borough prior to the gate going up. Enforcement of parking violations by the borough may be an issue because the "private/gated" status. But often the fire department official can enforce parking issues much better than the police can in private communities. We just went through this in our HOA and the fire department has a tremendous level of authority.
RobertG
(Arizona)

Posts:505


07/24/2007 1:32 PM  
As I have stated, we live in a gated area consisting of 120 homes out of a total of 800. They were all built about the same time but several of the sections are less expensive/size than our plans. There are another 100+ homes of the exact same floor plans outside the gates across the street. We pay $35.50 above the $60 per month for the non-gated. We own the streets/lights. However, we have city services for trash/water/sewer/police/fire and a few other administrative issues. We use a magic clicker gate control, no cameras or humans.

I don't think there is any substantial proof that the gates increase the resale price in the gated area. I would say it might be harder to sell a house if you believe drive by traffic helps as there is less. We do get some less traffic, but not much. Too many people sneak in through the gates that don't belong. Security is definitely not any better and as has been pointed out, may be more of an attraction for burglars.

You may not have the option of a split community, but since ours is, we have seen an attitude by a number of non-gated homeowners who think the gated owners are snobs (or something similar). We also have difficulty getting the attention from the board on items that relate only with the gated homeowners. We have had board members make comments like "If you can get YOUR people to do...". I know a number of the gated homeowners would like to have had our own HOA and we believe many issues would not be a problem.

I would strongly suggest you understand exactly why you are doing this. It is a huge undertaking and difficult to undo. Go slowly.
RobertG
(Arizona)

Posts:505


07/24/2007 1:39 PM  
Posted By JoeW1 on 07/24/2007 1:32 PM
RogerB - Who doesn't recommend gate guards? We have gate guards 24/7, extremely effective. We also have a camera and monitor screen with video tape provided free from the security company to capture the license plate as each car enters in the event of a breach. My opinion regarding guards is that the human intervention, as opposed to an automated system keeps the traffic flowing at the front entrance. It also allows the guards to call the unit for to announce the wish for unauthorized guests to be granted access. As for trash collection, fires, and police those services can not be denied a qualified private community, otherwise it's double taxation because the municipal services are part of owners taxes. Though it will be a formality that should be discussed and agreed to in writing with the borough prior to the gate going up. Enforcement of parking violations by the borough may be an issue because the "private/gated" status. But often the fire department official can enforce parking issues much better than the police can in private communities. We just went through this in our HOA and the fire department has a tremendous level of authority.



How much do you pay for the gate guards?
hoatalk


Posts:563


07/24/2007 2:07 PM  
Many discussions have been had here on this. Search for: gated community
Here's some related topics:
(Hightlight, copy and paste to your browser address bar in another window)

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/19537/Default.aspx

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/96/Default.aspx

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/13117/Default.aspx

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/11951/Default.aspx

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/11110/Default.aspx

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/9840/Default.aspx

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/9735/Default.aspx


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RobertG
(Arizona)

Posts:505


07/24/2007 2:50 PM  
Posted By hoatalk on 07/24/2007 2:07 PM
Many discussions have been had here on this. Search for: gated community
Here's some related topics:
(Hightlight, copy and paste to your browser address bar in another window)

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/19537/Default.aspx

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/96/Default.aspx

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/13117/Default.aspx

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/11951/Default.aspx

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/11110/Default.aspx

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/9840/Default.aspx

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/9735/Default.aspx




Are you (and anyone else) aware it is easy to make such references easy to link instead of having to copy and paste into your browser? It is a bit more typing, but makes it much easier for the reader. In case you want to do this, put the following text around the link. I am going to use the words less-than for the symbol < and greater-than for the symbol > and no-space to mean don't really put a space there to make sure it doesn't actually invoke the link mechanism.

less-than no-space a href="http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/9735/Default.aspx" target=blank_ greater-than no-space http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/9735/Default.aspx less-than no-space/a no-space greater-than

If you don't put in the target=blank_ then the referenced link will replace the screen you are in, however if you put it in, then it will create a new window and leave the discussion forum screen intact - your choice. Also the text you put in for the second link can be anything you want. Below is exactly the way it should look (if I get it correct) and if you just start a quoted reply, you will see it actually as I stated.

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/9735/Default.aspx

RobertG
(Arizona)

Posts:505


07/24/2007 2:53 PM  
Another item that is significant in our situation, since we live in a municipality, we must abide by the fire codes. One of those codes (if I understood correctly) is that any section of homes must have two possible exits in case of emergency and one is blocked. Since we have the gates or walls around then entire section of homes, we had to have at least two gates (we actually have 3).
JoeW1
(New York)

Posts:728


07/24/2007 5:01 PM  
RobertG - The gates in my HOA absolutely increase the resale price of homes. There is even research being conducted by sorrounding neighborhoods in implementing a gated system. I concur regarding the breaches in security but there is next to no drive through traffic in my HOA, it is extremely peaceful because of this. There is an increase in security. My HOA and yours is absolutely apples to oranges because you don't have the manned attendant. You pay $426.00 per year, I pay $648.00, a difference of about $18.50 per month more or .61 more cents per day than you. To me, the fact that our units are selling for over $100,000.00 more than non-gated communities of comparable units is proof the gates increase the resale value.
PaulM
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:1347


07/25/2007 5:19 AM  
KD1: Do you want to share your concerns over your non-gated and why you feel going to a gated is the answer?
KennyD1
(Texas)

Posts:51


07/25/2007 6:57 PM  
I did do a search on gated community. Don't know why you came up with all those findings, cause I couldn't find anything like your list, but thank you for posting them for me.

We in the neigborhood feel that our major concerns are the traffic through the neighborhood. Those that cut through our neighborhood speed, and don't stop at stop signs. A traffic light was installed at an intersection that alot of people avoid, just by cutting through our neighborhood. I complaned to the city that they are putting a hardship on the nighborhood to purchasing extra road safty such as speed humps, that will cost about $10,000.00 per hump.

Also a gated community can control alot more bylaws when it comes to the streets. If the streets are deeded over to the community then we can set rules to things from parking, centain vehicles being ban, and enforcement thorugh a towing company of our choice in towing company.

This is just a small amount of things we can do as a gated community.

#1 - Safety
and
#2 - Vaule
PaulM
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:1347


07/26/2007 6:38 AM  
KennyD1: Thanks for posting the whole situation and why you feel you want to go to a gated community--due to a traffic problem.

Now, lets back up. You are a community which is non-gated, and the roadways are being used by the 'public'. You believe that a lot of extra wear and tear is being done because of this.

Questions:
- Do you have speed limit signs posted? If so, at what MPH?
- Have you spoken to the police about the speeding problem?
- Have you asked about the local municipality installing speed bumps?

I want to caution you about a desire for wanting your community roadways changed from local municipality responsibility to community responsibility. You don't realize what you are asking. You will require a large, if not 100%, of your membership to vote yes to change the CC&Rs to include the roadways as association responsibility. Are you prepared to add this to your long-term capital expenditures? Will you be prepared to now raise your assessment fee substantially to cover roadway repair, snow and ice removal, curb/gutter repair/maintenance. Think twice, three, four times....

Instead, turn your attention to the actual problem of speeding. Post enough speed limit signs; work with the local police to post the speed at 15MPH; be available (when you can) to caution 'speeders' to slow down and abide by the speed limit.
You will find, after awhile, people will find another route to take and you will not have to fund your roadways or a gate nor be consumed by the other problems these changes would bring.


JoeW1
(New York)

Posts:728


07/26/2007 8:00 AM  
I agree with PaulM. As you can see KennyD1 there is much to consider on the increase to your budget for a gated provision. However, there is one factor that may offset expenses (a bit). The borough should still reimburse the Association for the borough's cost to remove the snow from the roadways and reimburse for the borough's cost for street lighting. Otherwise your HOA members will be paying twice for municipal services. Once in taxes to the borough, and again to the Association in maintenance fees to pay for the services. If my HOA was non-gated and we were voting on going the way of a gate I would vote yes for everything we currently have. However, that's just me since I see the benefit of peace and quite, increased security, and a tremendous bang for my buck spent on the gate and 24/7 attendants. Our gate matters don't consume our HOA.
PaulM
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:1347


07/26/2007 9:32 AM  
JoeW1:
One point I want to make re your recent response...
"..The borough SHOULD still reimburse the Association for the borough's cost to remove the snow from the roadways and reimburse for the borough's cost for street lighting. Otherwise your HOA members will be paying twice for municipal services. Once in taxes to the borough, and again to the Association in maintenance fees to pay for the services..."

This matter has been discussed on this forum and the only state I am aware of which has the Municipal Services Act is N.J. There is quite a difference in what one thinks SHOULD HAPPEN (are you speaking about Fairness???) and what DOES OCCUR. Unless it becomes state/county law, municipalities will continue to realize full tax dollars from HOA residents who have community-dedicated streets and lighting. Thanks, Mr. Developer/Mr. Builder!
RobertG
(Arizona)

Posts:505


07/26/2007 9:37 AM  
Posted By JoeW1 on 07/26/2007 8:00 AM
I agree with PaulM. As you can see KennyD1 there is much to consider on the increase to your budget for a gated provision. However, there is one factor that may offset expenses (a bit). The borough should still reimburse the Association for the borough's cost to remove the snow from the roadways and reimburse for the borough's cost for street lighting. Otherwise your HOA members will be paying twice for municipal services. Once in taxes to the borough, and again to the Association in maintenance fees to pay for the services. If my HOA was non-gated and we were voting on going the way of a gate I would vote yes for everything we currently have. However, that's just me since I see the benefit of peace and quite, increased security, and a tremendous bang for my buck spent on the gate and 24/7 attendants. Our gate matters don't consume our HOA.



I am not sure I would agree with your logic. I think you are saying that you should get back (or not pay) local taxes that relate to street maintenance since you are paying for the same services through the HOA. [Correct me if I am wrong]. I don't think that since you made a decision to live in a place that has an extra fee, then you should get money back from the city. If you were somehow taxed twice by the city because you were in a gated community, then I would think that unfair.

I also don't think that just because you opt out of using the city services, you should not have to pay the tax. That would be saying that I should not have to pay a school district tax if I don't have kids in the school. Or, if I don't ever call the fire department, then I should get back the tax portion that pays for fire protection.

Even if you could convince me that your position is correct, I think it would be a nightmare for a municipality to implement a selective tax rate schedule.
JoeW1
(New York)

Posts:728


07/26/2007 5:05 PM  
Posted By RobertG on 07/26/2007 9:37 AM
Posted By JoeW1 on 07/26/2007 8:00 AM
I agree with PaulM. As you can see KennyD1 there is much to consider on the increase to your budget for a gated provision. However, there is one factor that may offset expenses (a bit). The borough should still reimburse the Association for the borough's cost to remove the snow from the roadways and reimburse for the borough's cost for street lighting. Otherwise your HOA members will be paying twice for municipal services. Once in taxes to the borough, and again to the Association in maintenance fees to pay for the services. If my HOA was non-gated and we were voting on going the way of a gate I would vote yes for everything we currently have. However, that's just me since I see the benefit of peace and quite, increased security, and a tremendous bang for my buck spent on the gate and 24/7 attendants. Our gate matters don't consume our HOA.



I am not sure I would agree with your logic. I think you are saying that you should get back (or not pay) local taxes that relate to street maintenance since you are paying for the same services through the HOA. [Correct me if I am wrong]. I don't think that since you made a decision to live in a place that has an extra fee, then you should get money back from the city. If you were somehow taxed twice by the city because you were in a gated community, then I would think that unfair.

I also don't think that just because you opt out of using the city services, you should not have to pay the tax. That would be saying that I should not have to pay a school district tax if I don't have kids in the school. Or, if I don't ever call the fire department, then I should get back the tax portion that pays for fire protection.

Even if you could convince me that your position is correct, I think it would be a nightmare for a municipality to implement a selective tax rate schedule.




RobertG - I am absolutely not saying I should not pay local taxes. Quite the contrary. FYI, because our borough approved construction of our HOA, they have benefited from an increase in tax revenue to the tune of over $2,000,000.00 per year. Since there were relatively few school age children during this time there was no increased burden upon the school facilities.

No need to convince you or anyone else of any "logic". It's the law in New Jersey called the Municipal Services Reimbursement Act. Our Borough is obligate by law to reimburse us for their cost for various municipal services including their cost for snow removal per mile of roadway, and retroactive to the date we first started paying for it too by the way.

Do a google search under Municipal Services Reimbursement Act New Jersey. Or go to the following:

www.njlawblog.com/2006/07/articles/community-associations/is-your-association-receiving-the-benefits-of-the-municipal-services-act/

It states, “Every municipality in New Jersey is required to either provide certain services to each qualified private community within its borders or reimburse the community for these services, including the removal of snow, collection of trash or recyclables or lighting of roads and streets. The purpose of the Municipal Services Act is simple – eliminate double taxation of community association residents.”

So if you follow the "logic", and New Jersey law, perhaps you and everyone else on HOATalk could spearhead a similar reimbursement for your HOA to offset the costs and prevent double taxation of your residents. Bottom line they are paying for the services twice. Once for the roadways and services outside of the HOA, and again for the roadways and services inside. New Jersey has set a standard that many HOA's should take note of.
AlexL1
(Florida)

Posts:305


11/18/2007 9:29 AM  
Wow! lots of good comments but did not see any which really involves a condo area where one buys a condo without any mention of it being a gated community and then the BOD(for example) wants to have it(change it) to a gated community. What if some owners(or one even) objects... He says he/she bought the condo with the realization that it was going to be a non-gated community. What recourse does he/she have in this case... particulary if the BOD decides to GO AHEAD with the transforming the non-gated to a gated???
DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:5671


11/18/2007 9:50 AM  


Alex,

Having a good deal of experience with "gated communities", I can tell you about the cons of gating your community. Ignoring the cost, unless your developement has a secure wall all around the condo's outer perimeter, putting a gate up basically just gives residents and service people who work inside of the place, just a headache. If a bad guy wants to find entry, without being secure all of the way around, they drive anyplace where they feel will best give them access. A good bush fence will deter them as well as walls and fences.

Depending what kind of gates you are looking into, some are totally inefficient. The "swing arms are slow and once 1 car gets it open, any amount can follow thru. That makes them useless. And you must them pay for a telephone line and the keypad box for visitors to use. The up and down poles are usually wooden. They get snapped off like a pretzel stick and are costly to keep replacing.One of my places replaces 2 or 3 per month. So unless you are secure all of your perimeter, even a guard at a gate will not be completely secure. Have you looked into the cost of a 24 hour guard contract? You will be suprised how much that costs.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:5671


11/18/2007 9:53 AM  
Alex,
An owners only recourse is to not vote for acceptance of the high cost for a project like this. The Board most likely cannot allot that kind of funds for an improvement without a vote by the residents. Check your docs to see if they have a spending cap. It is more money than they think to put gates up.
AlexL1
(Florida)

Posts:305


11/18/2007 11:45 AM  
Donna:
I suspect you mean a VOTE BY HE OWNERS (not the residents) because in many cases, the residents are renters and not owners.
JoeW1
(New York)

Posts:728


11/19/2007 1:52 PM  
AlexL1 - Rest assured, there probably is no GO AHEAD given the expense, at least there shouldn't be. If there is a possibility that your Board could approve any expense more than the owners want than I'd start a petition to put a spending cap measure in place for capital improvements. The recourse an owner has is in their vote for or against, and their ability to campaign/petition for their beliefs. I live in a gated community that has one entrance and one exit. There is a gatehouse for the attendants that man the front entrance and exit 24/7. The cost is apprx. $130,000 per year. There are wooden arms that go up and down for the entrance and exit. The guards have a phone and computer and will call the residents for guests or delivery. There is a list of guests that do not need to be announced and owners can add or remove to that list. The entrance arm goes up by an automatic transponder and the exit arm goes up by a sensor under the roadway. The cost per owner is less than a cup of coffee a day. While the amount per year is hefty the benefit is 100%% seen in higher property values for other non-gated communities constructed at the same time. I'm talking property values $100,000 higher, even with the nation's current mortgage default troubles. There is an undeniable benefit attributed to the gate. While the gated service may have it's flaws, take it down and all know there will be a property value plummet. The savings per owner per month is minimal. The owners must decide collectively by percentage 2/3r'ds to remove the gate or other parts of the service including any one shift.
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