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JeanneK3
(Maryland)

Posts:362

07/18/2007 6:56 PM
All of the above is fine except when you have a Board that never discusses real issues at the open meeting and where all real financial decisions are made in secret. The Minutes never give the membership the insight they deserve yet there are open meetings with written Minutes. So what do you do when the Minutes are a farce?

JaneK
(California)

Posts:175

07/18/2007 8:43 PM
The 'official' minutes from our last board meeting are pure fiction. Good question, what do you do? I'm hoping to generate enough interest so there are witnesses at least. I also post my own 'minutes' on my 'renegade' website. I would really like to record, I've injured my hand and can't write. Jane

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2491

07/18/2007 8:48 PM
Jade: My eyes are burning from the last post you made...I didn't see in there anywhere where it states that boards are not required to make available the copy of the tape if they do the recording. I saw some jargon that said it could get expensive. Again, I will go back to the question I had...If the board tapes the meeting, is it now official HOA records? All the baloney about how tapes can be doctored is the same argument for taping, minutes rarely reflect what happens in a meeting. I am not a proponent, just a curious person.

Jadedone4
(Virginia)

Posts:495

07/18/2007 9:33 PM
Brad, the last post was a "pro's and con's" on taping from the "arhc" site, not me. IMHO, if an HOA "officially" uses a tape to record a meeting (where guidelines, as you suggested) are in effect, and it is done by, or with the board's consent - then I would consider it to be a record. Again there needs to be a defined purpose, custodial, and need for this action. If you are doing it to supplement or complement minutes, or if you are doing so to create an archives - let the process be known, so that all parties, both sides, are well aware of the potential for abuse. Further there needs to be definition of what the retention of tapes would be, does the local/state statutes/codes speak to how long to maintain, etc? None of this is mentioned (since we previously referenced Virginia's POAA) as a part of that statute. We moved from "can" a member tape a meeting... to "should" a board tape meetings... not to is it a record... without addressing the questions in the middle. The argument promoted, was that if an HOA made a tape = record, and the same was the question you presented, was this true or false, and is it supported? However, absent an official capacity of (anyone - board, or member) I would not consider any taping to be official. Just as an officer, or director has a responsibility to the community, he/she has an ethical responsibility to act with fiduciary care. I am NOT against taping meetings, I am however leery of the catalyst for the apparent rush to do so. If the underlying issue is board responsibilities and a board NOT performing with ethical intentions - that is the issue which would seem (to me) that needed addressing. What has been presented here is that errant boards have abused membership, and the "only" method to cure is to tape a meeting. Do we really believe that a board which is committed to do "dirty" is going to stop doing so, because a tape is turned on?.. or will they just do it in another venue? (not to make trivial the situation here, but some jurisdictions use recording devices to monitor traffic - redlight cameras, speed cameras, etc. After the general public is aware of locations, they "alter" their habits to circumvent the cameras, and then continue on with abhorrent behaviours). I have been able to use drafted minutes of our previous board, to show clear irregularities in their practices, without a tape. Will that work for every HOA... probably not. I am not suggesting that a viable tool be removed from member's ability to thwart an errant board - just stating that if your toolbox only contains one tool, you might be ill-equiped to effect change. On the other side of the coin, the legal side, which often states that pragmatically you should NEVER record a meeting (assuming that the reference is aimed at a board doing so officially, and not suggesting that it prohibit a right, as under Va POAA, of a member to record). From that point of view, I can also understand why a board may not want to record - and it does not automatically mean something is "amiss." The resulting questions here, are would that be a pausible reason for a "director and officer liability" insurance carrier to refuse to cover a cause of action of a board - by stating that they, the board, did not heed sound legal advice? Here we are delving into a lot of "what if's" which I am sure have been addressed in some form - or probably need to be addressed further. It becomes "chicken or egg, which came first" question - is/did the need to record meetings because of bad boards, or was it a good idea in which technology caught-up and overran existing codes/statutes on the matter?

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2491

07/19/2007 6:55 AM
Jade: I am actually against tapings of any meetings, the only time that I know that it is done is when you are being interrogated for a crime (not from experience, just watch a lot of TV). IMO minutes are a summary of what happened, therefore if you take good notes during a meeting it shouldn't be a problem to write effective minutes. If a community member wants to tape a meeting I would allow that, however I would not recommend any board do it. To me it just opens up to many cans of worms that are better left alone. As I say, if people want to know what is going on then attend the meeting, recording will just contribute to apathy or laziness as I call it IMO.

MikeS1

Posts:0

07/19/2007 6:57 AM
Brad - Great advice. Thanks.

JudithC
(Virginia)

Posts:253

07/19/2007 7:31 AM
I'm happy to see that people have come around to the point of view that a tape is a record of the association that must be shared, if so requested. As to whether taping meetings promotes laziness and apathy here are a few thoughts. 1. The only times I have known boards to tape their own meetings is for their own convenience. 2. Anyone willing to listen to a 2-3 hour tape of a board meeting is certainly not apathetic. 3. There are some people who cannot attend board meetings because of conflicting schedules (often night school or choir practice in my experience). There are those with young children who must be with them at night and don't want to/can't afford a baby sitter. There are others who would find it very hard to attend due to physical disabilities -- need for oxygen where the normal size cannister does not last the required amount of time, hearing problems, and mobility problems are just a number of the things that do legitimately come up. I think that one could very well argue that making tapes available would increase interest in the community, not decrease it. I would also give my observation that the board members here who say "if they are interested they could attend a board meeting" never once attended one before they got on the board. I find that quite curious.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2491

07/19/2007 7:49 AM
Judith: If your board meetings are 2-3 hours long you have a lot of other issues, either meetings are too infrequent or your chair can't keep on task. Ours never went over 1 hour and 30 minutes. Furthermore the board should welcome children to the meeting or help to arrange childcare so parents can attend. Having the option of a tape just gives another excuse for someone to not show up. Yes, it comes in handy if you have a work conflict and could also come in handy if your favorite TV show is on.

DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:653

07/19/2007 2:35 PM
Posted By BradP on 07/19/2007 6:55 AM IMO minutes are a summary of what happened, therefore if you take good notes during a meeting it shouldn't be a problem to write effective minutes. Some people have suggested in this thread that the secretary may want to record the meeting as an aid when writing the official minutes. The recommendation has been to destroy the tape as soon as the minutes are complete. Others have said that this recording should be preserved as part of the official record. Just to be the devils advocate, if instead of recording the meeting you "take good notes during a meeting", should those notes then become part of the official record? If not, then why would an electronic recording be any different from somebodies detailed notes?

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2491

07/19/2007 2:54 PM
Dwight: Notes should be part of the record, they should be filed with the minutes so if there is any disputing facts you can go back to the notes. Here is my devils advocate for the day...if the HOA records the meeting to decipher minutes can they legally destroy the tape? If it is part of the records of an HOA I wouldn't think so. I don't know any of this, it is a good question and discussion, I wish there was some precedents or case law on this to give a direction.

Jadedone4
(Virginia)

Posts:495

07/19/2007 4:40 PM
Dwight/Brad, (IMHO) the tapes or notes in both scenarios would more than likely be (legally) defined as "work-product," and held to those rules. Again emphasizing the need for structured guidelines for these processes.

JakeS
(South Carolina)

Posts:24

09/03/2007 4:43 PM
Record the meetings the politics can not come into play nearly as much when you have the actual verbage. Also tell everyone in the meeting that the tapes will be kept on file for future reference. Minutes are not aa good or nearly as reliable as the real thing. When people know they are being recorded they think before they speak and hopefully research before they speak like they have authority. Remember folks most HOA boards have NO training for the position and much of what they decide on is done by the seat of their pants. No one should hold a position with the HOA without training. Most HOA board are made up of very unqualified people. They want the job more for ego than to add real value. An untrained board can hurt property values more than no HOA at all. BAD HOA Boards get talked about and real estate agents learn about the problems and guess what they guide their buyers to other home purchases. Tough words but very true.

HowardG1
(Nevada)

Posts:6

09/03/2007 6:07 PM
Hello HOA land. It is such fun being on the BOD's. All the egos go crazy and nothing gets accomplished. I am in agreement that the BOD members should have training. We have classes here in Nevada in the Ombudsman's office but no one goes to them. I have gone in the past but now the powers that be have changed and they don't want to be bothered. We have all kinds of laws: NRS116, NAC116, CC&R'S, Bylaws and Rules & Regs but each board wants to make their own, this causes a real mess. Someday maybe the BOD's will get together and hold everyone serving responsible and do their FIDUCIARY duty. We tape all of our meetings -HOA and Executive sessions. That is the only way the details are known, otherwise a few notes do not tell the real story. Having fun in HOA land! HowardG1

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