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Subject: Hot Tub use by small children
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LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:771


08/25/2016 10:09 PM  
I have brought a complaint to my HOA that they flat out refuse to act on and they cite the US vs Plaza Mobile Estates ruling on banning children from the pool.

My complaint is children are being allowed not properly supervised into the hot tub, where splash, jump around. do cannon balls from the deck into the hot tub.
I have had small children not even 3 feet tall and struggling to stay above water climb on me and jump and land on my feet at the bottom.
My interpretation of the word USE varies from the MC's and the BOD.. I find it to be an misuse and abuse of the equipment. in addition ADULTS that use the hot tub to convalesce for therapeutic purposes often find themselves yielding the hot tub to the little crumb crunchers.

The MC cites FHA and anti discrimination laws that ban any children from using the POOL.. That is the POOL not Hot Tub..


To the owners, current and former BOD's what is your experiences? Can the HOA place reasonable restriction on children from entering the Hot Tub?

Thank You
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16445


08/26/2016 1:28 AM  
Restrictions can not be aged based. See:

POOL DISCRIMINATION from Davis Stirling site - discusses the federal case you reference

What Associations Should Know About Pool Rules & the Fair Housing Act from an attorneys site

HOA Pool Rule Prejudice from Realty Times

Discrimination Against Children: Traps And Pitfalls from Apartment Owners Association

If you do an internet search for HOA children and pools you will have several more articles to research.
PitA


Posts:0


08/26/2016 4:42 AM  
HOWEVER:

The 'licensing authority' of your jurisdiction has RULES governing pool and hot tub usage.

Said rules PROHIBIT unsupervised children, running, jumping, horseplay.

Simply enforce the rules of the authority having jurisdiction.

ps. Said rules also apply to adults.

pps. The rule barring unsupervised children is permissible because of society's 'overwhelming interest in protecting children' or some such language (too lazy to look it up right now)
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:771


08/26/2016 7:30 AM  
I an referring to the Hot Tub,, NOT the Pool.. These are two separate yet distinct bodies of water...

I watched as 2 small children barely 3 feet tall struggle to stay afloat against the power of the hot tub jets the one child nearly went under water.
One would think for safety sake the children who cant stat up with their head above water should not be allowed in a pool or hot tub that is deeper than their height.
BobD4
(up north)

Posts:916


08/26/2016 7:45 AM  
Good points. Reasonable usage Rules - posted & actually applied regardless of age or other Rights discriminators equally - should be enforced if for no other reason than water/slippery surfaces are factors.

1- Children frequently enough get a pass on recognition of risks & consequences, that a City nearby is being sued for $10M by parents of a 13 year old child who toboganned headfirst ( ! ) & using only a piece of foam before being badly injured by an oncoming wooden toboggan. Contextually some jurisdictions may give them a pass on danger warning signs where a nuisance danger attracts them unsupervised.

2 - A Rights Tribunal here upheld a complaint that 'no diapers in condo pool' was deliberately targetted by age against the complainant's infant wearing what the diaper industry claims is 'waterproof diapers'. All diaper wearing -regardless of age - was technically prohibited from the condo pool within the documented condo Pool Rules. But the 'posted' prohibitions cited only children. Parent got $10K for hurt feelings after being barred 3 times at the pool entrance.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8497


08/26/2016 7:56 AM  
Is there anything stopping you from calling the parents? Why does it have to be the HOA's responsibility? If I saw it, I'd find their person they are responsible for them and tell them. That's what I would do when I was President. Simply go to the adult responsible and inform them of the children's behavior. If it's illegal behavior, it went to the cops. The HOA is NOT your kid's guardians nor protectors.

I had a kid who was drinking at the pool. A renter gave them the alcohol who was an adult. I went straight to his grandmother and told her. Plus I went to the landlord to report what his tenant had done. Pretty much shamed them as well. Let everyone know what happened and didn't hide it. If they were there to hear it, so be it.

This isn't an HOA, it's a personal issues happening on HOA property. No one is stopping you from going to the source of parents or the kids except for yourself. That's my opinion.

Former HOA President
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16445


08/26/2016 7:59 AM  
Posted By LetA on 08/26/2016 7:30 AM
I an referring to the Hot Tub,, NOT the Pool.. These are two separate yet distinct bodies of water...




Understood. However, the same issue applies (potential discrimination).
An internet search for HOA hot tub children gives the same items.

As others have suggested, Counties typically have pool and spa (hot tub) regulations.
You should check with those as they may provide you with what you are looking for.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6606


08/26/2016 8:26 AM  
While we don't have many children living in our High rise HOA, we have quite a few who visit especially during the summer and on weekends. And others are right, you cannot ban kids from using the spa nor can you set certain hours that only adults may use it.

Our Rules & Regs states that there no running, loud talking or diving into our pool or spa. They also say that residents must accompany guests, and adults 18+ must accompany children under 14. But that doesn't mean they must be in the spa with the child, just in the fenced pool area.

In the 12 years I've lived here with excellent views of the area, I have NEVER seen anyone do dives or cannonballs into the spa. I've never seen any child struggling to stand up. A child barely 3 feet tall is only 24-28 months old and I've never seen one so young alone in our spa. No one jumps in due to the wide built-in cement seats completely around the interior of the spa. Smaller kids stand on these seats instead of in the "deeper" part.

And you can take action into your own hands. I would not hesitate from asking a child to stop splashing or to get off of me. I'd look pleadingly at the adults involved if I know who there are. I probably would not speak to the adults, but that depends on the situation.

We do have security officers here and I could call them if the situation is really a loud mess.

So, I'd say that you need to encourage your Board to write reasonable rules of pool area conduct AND enforce them. You might even go online and fine appropriate rules to submit to your board.

Another option is to use the spa when fewer kids are around. In my HOA, for instance, it's rare to see kids there at all till the afternoon/evening, and very rarely after, say, 8pm.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16445


08/26/2016 9:20 AM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 08/26/2016 8:26 AM

Our Rules & Regs states . . . and adults 18+ must accompany children under 14. But that doesn't mean they must be in the spa with the child, just in the fenced pool area.




Kerry,

Based on the articles I read and provided links to, requiring an adult age 18+ may very well be discriminatory.

The reason given in the article is that a 16 or 17 year old may be a better supervisor then an 80 year old but, per your rule, they would be disallowed to supervise.

See this article:

http://communityassociationmanagement.com/c49-legal-compliance/c52-fha/government-federal-court-complicate-hoa-pool-rules/

PitA


Posts:0


08/26/2016 9:47 AM  
Posted By LetA on 08/26/2016 7:30 AM
I an referring to the Hot Tub,, NOT the Pool.. These are two separate yet distinct bodies of water...

I watched as 2 small children barely 3 feet tall struggle to stay afloat against the power of the hot tub jets the one child nearly went under water.
One would think for safety sake the children who cant stat up with their head above water should not be allowed in a pool or hot tub that is deeper than their height.




Most jurisdictions, mine included, regulate hot tubs as well as swimming pools.


They are BOTH pools.


The hot tub being MORE dangerous because of the 'high' temperature.


as per the CDC:

http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/swimming/aquatics-professionals/regulation-inspection.html

Pool regulations and codes are developed by government agencies to make sure that treated recreational water facilities (for example, pools, hot tubs, and water parks) provide a clean, healthy, and safe environment for the public. These regulations set minimum standards (such as the amount of chlorine that should be in the pool) to decrease the public’s risk of illness and injury. To ensure that these regulations are followed, state and local officials regularly inspect treated recreational water venues.

ps. your HOA's swimming pool, if available to nonmember guests of members, is probably classified as a class {whatever} public pool and IS subject to regulation AND licensing ~ ditto your hot tub
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6606


08/26/2016 9:48 AM  
The 18+ must be present for under 14 (or 14 & under; too lazy, like PiTa to look now) ) is the sign from our municipality on the fence near the safety equipment. .

We do not have the resources or skill-set to judge if a 16 y.o is a "competent swimmer" so may supervise her/his under-14 buddies or relatives. I think I'm not worried about this rule as no one has complained in 15 years.

The article, though, would be a good one for LetA.
PitA


Posts:0


08/26/2016 9:54 AM  
Kerry,

here in South Carolina the DHEC rule is under 16 not allowed w/o adult supervision

(16 being the age of adulthood)
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6606


08/26/2016 1:13 PM  
So...as PitA notes, hat's something else LetA needs to take into account. If the Board needs encouragement to write clear enforceable pool rules, what does NV or your city say about ages without supervision?
PitA


Posts:0


08/26/2016 2:18 PM  
The 'Authority Having Jurisdiction' has a REQUIRED set of rules.

They are comprehensive.

Why trouble yourselves with more (unenforceable and possibly illegal) rules ?????

Juuuuuust say'ng.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:771


08/26/2016 6:05 PM  
The same rules, adult supervision 16 or older. Again as posted above a 16 year old may me more competent than the person that gave birth to the said child.
There are clear CC&R's on horseplay etc, My HOA hoverer thinks that a child has a right to use the hot tub in the same manner as the swimming pool, totally against the intended purpose of that particular piece of machinery.. Our CC&R's clearly state that at no time shall anyone commit any acts as to inhibit another's enjoyment or use of any amenities.

Plain and simple we have wimps for the MC & BOD
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:771


08/26/2016 6:09 PM  
There are clear rules posted in the pool area, yet adults that chaperone children to the pool allow the children to run and dive into a 3 & 4 foot pool, dive from atop of the pool ladders standing on the foam hand grips.. I suggested that signs be posted in english and Spanish, I was called a racist..
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:771


08/26/2016 6:13 PM  
I did email the FHA Fair Housing Authority. Their response said that they do not have any regulatory authority over hot tubs.
They suggested that I refer to my CC&R's State or local governance and or the Health Department..


I don't know what to make of that, and I did cite the Mobile Estates ruling...
WerroW
(Virginia)

Posts:2


09/02/2019 6:04 AM  


POOL DISCRIMINATION from Davis Stirling site - discusses the federal case you reference
Baby carrier wrap [url]https://loveandcarry.com/en/shop/view/baby-carriers/[/url]
What Associations Should Know About Pool Rules & the Fair Housing Act from an attorneys site

HOA Pool Rule Prejudice from Realty Times

Discrimination Against Children: Traps And Pitfalls from Apartment Owners Association

If you do an internet search for HOA children and pools you will have several more articles to research.

Subject: Hot Tub use by small children


Thank you for the information

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WerroW
(Virginia)

Posts:2


09/02/2019 6:05 AM  
Love&Carry

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DebraL5
(Texas)

Posts:15


09/04/2019 8:34 AM  
The CDC recommends that children under 5 should not use a hot tub.
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