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LindaK5 (California)
Posts: 242
Posted:
I'm finding conflicting information on service/therapy dogs. ADA website says you can't ask for proof of the dog actually being a service/therapy dog, while Davis Stirling FAQ on this subject says you can.

Anyone have experience with this?

We have a tenant who has a large American Eskimo dog - runs loose and out of control in the community. These tenants have been ongoing problems since they moved in and unfortunately, one is the son of the owner, along with baby mama and a couple of kids. On one occasion when the dog was loose, the tenant was asked who the dog belonged to and she said her parents. When I contacted the homeowner, she said the dog was the tenant's and for PTSD from serving our country. Really laid it on thick when I questioned about the dog. I was very careful in questioning, but am wondering where to go from here. Dogs over 35 pounds are not allowed in the community - except for service/therapy animals. I really don't think this one is either of those and right now, the dog appears to be living there full time.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Linda,

Service animals and therapy animals are two different things.

Keep in mind that The Fair Housing Act covers service animal provisions for residential housing situations not the ADA. Per HUD FHEO Notice FHEO-2013-01 (link is pdf document) Housing providers may ask individuals who have disabilities that are not readily apparent or known to the provider to submit reliable documentation of a disability and their disability-related need for an assistance animal. This is likely why the Davis-Stirling site says you may ask for documentation.

The request may also be denied if: (1) the specific assistance animal in question poses a direct
threat to the health or safety of others that cannot be reduced or eliminated by another reasonable
accommodation, or (2) the specific assistance animal in question would cause substantial
physical damage to the property of others that cannot be reduced or eliminated by another
reasonable accommodation. Breed, size, and weight limitations may not be applied to an
assistance animal.

Therefore, if the animal is not able to be kept under control, the Association can ask that it be removed. However, prior to making such a request, the Association should consult with a local attorney versed in FHA statutes.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Call Animal control. The HOA isn't in the loose pet business. Animal control knows the rules and the laws in order to take the proper legal action. These are tenants so you must go after the owners. Your HOA has no contract with tenants. So best to communicate to the owner what is going on and Animal control.

Former HOA President
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Does your HOA, Linda, have rules against dogs being off leash? If so, send the unit owner a courtesy letter telling them they must follow the rule. Inform them that if they don't the Board will call them to a hearing and possibly fine them.

If they don't comply, follow your procedures for calling the Owner to a hearing and fining them. If your own fining procedures aren't clear, go to davis-stirling.com and see what they advise.

As Melissa advises, you also might be able to call animal control, specially if your HOA has no rule against loose dogs (our does an we enforce it).

Whether or not a service or therapy dog, your HOA rules about controlling dogs must be followed.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
To be clear:
"Therapy dogs" are NOT Service Dogs, and they are NOT a protected class of animals.

The ADA wins out over Davis-Sterling on this one. The only questions you can legally ask in determining if the dog is permitted or not are:
1) Is the dog a service dog?
2) What task is the dog trained to perform?

Of course, you can ask all sorts of other questions. It's still America and you still have the freedom to do that, but you can't ask for their medical history or anything else in making the determination about it being a service dog. Thin line to walk in the end should they push the issue when you complain.

As stated above, if the dog is loose and in violation of regulations (aside from simply being there), enforce your rules. The only rule the dog is permitted to violate is that it's there in the first place.

Running loose is not exactly a quality that is common in Service animals, either.
LindaK5 (California)
Posts: 242
Posted:
First off, thank you for all of your replies. Yes, I know there is a difference between a service dog and a therapy dog. The problem we have is that the homeowner has been contacted regarding the loose dog and she denies that it is happening. Hard to get a picture when it occurs. On top of that, they started out with the dog belonging to the parents of the tenant who live elsewhere and she was dog-sitting. Then the owner told me the dog belong to the tenant. The story keeps changing. At one point the homeowner even offered to provide me paperwork showing the dog is a service animal. According to the owner, the tenant goes to her parents house to do service with the dog, whatever that means.
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
In many cases service-therapy dogs are a big scam. Simply a way to have an animal you would otherwise not be able to keep.

Going online you will find quite a few services providing certificates and certifications for service dogs. No actual need for these animals just pay a fee and they provide you documentation.

Sad there are always individuals who work the system to their advantage. Thankfully we have had very few requests for service dogs on out property as in most cases this becomes quite a can of worms.

If the property has rules in place for dog behavior than apply those rules. If not in the town has a leash requirement than call the animal control officer.
Good luck.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaK5 on 08/03/2016 12:30 PM
First off, thank you for all of your replies. Yes, I know there is a difference between a service dog and a therapy dog. The problem we have is that the homeowner has been contacted regarding the loose dog and she denies that it is happening. Hard to get a picture when it occurs. On top of that, they started out with the dog belonging to the parents of the tenant who live elsewhere and she was dog-sitting. Then the owner told me the dog belong to the tenant. The story keeps changing. At one point the homeowner even offered to provide me paperwork showing the dog is a service animal. According to the owner, the tenant goes to her parents house to do service with the dog, whatever that means.

Document!
Every conversation, what who said/claimed and when. You might need it later. It's clearly not a service dog if their story is changing.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
It doesn't matter if the "story keeps changing," Linda. The landlord is responsible for a loose dog. You probably do need pics though.

O, and do you rules against dogs off-leash?? Or not?
LindaK5 (California)
Posts: 242
Posted:
Yes, rules state dogs us be leashed and under control at all times in the common area. Yes, I document everything ... letters and emails, I keep everything!
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveD3 on 08/03/2016 10:44 AM

The ADA wins out over Davis-Sterling on this one.

The ADA applies to business (private or public).

The FHA (fair housing act), which has many of the same provisions of the ADA but some are different, applies to residences.

See:

Understanding and Contrasting the ADA and FHA 2014 article

Accessibility Requirements for Buildings from HUD.gov

SERVICE ANIMALS: THE ADA vs. THE FAIR HOUSING ACT pdf document from King County government, Washington State

3 Misconceptions Regarding ADA and Fair Housing Accessibility Laws 2014 article from property management firm

ADA vs FHA: How do they affect Community Associations? A 2012 article from a company that does condo FHA approval paperwork.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JonD1 on 08/03/2016 12:33 PM
In many cases service-therapy dogs are a big scam. Simply a way to have an animal you would otherwise not be able to keep.

Jon,

Although I agree with you. The links I provided in my first posting do mention animals and PTSD (which was the claim).
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 08/03/2016 3:20 PM
Posted By JonD1 on 08/03/2016 12:33 PM
In many cases service-therapy dogs are a big scam. Simply a way to have an animal you would otherwise not be able to keep.


Jon,

Although I agree with you. The links I provided in my first posting do mention animals and PTSD (which was the claim).

Generally speaking service dogs as a rule do NOT run loose away from the person they are serving. They are trained to remain in close proximity to their person. And they are never off leash outside.

I know this because a gentleman living across from me trains them. His dogs are calm, well behaved, and not running around the area.

From what the OP has posted my guess the tenant has a story to have a dog. Simple to determine with a few questions.
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 08/03/2016 3:20 PM
Posted By JonD1 on 08/03/2016 12:33 PM
In many cases service-therapy dogs are a big scam. Simply a way to have an animal you would otherwise not be able to keep.


Jon,

Although I agree with you. The links I provided in my first posting do mention animals and PTSD (which was the claim).

Generally speaking service dogs as a rule do NOT run loose away from the person they are serving. They are trained to remain in close proximity to their person. And they are never off leash outside.

I know this because a gentleman living across from me trains them. His dogs are calm, well behaved, and not running around the area.

From what the OP has posted my guess the tenant has a story to have a dog. Simple to determine with a few questions.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JonD1 on 08/03/2016 5:26 PM

Generally speaking service dogs as a rule do NOT run loose away from the person they are serving. They are trained to remain in close proximity to their person. And they are never off leash outside.

From what the OP has posted my guess the tenant has a story to have a dog. Simple to determine with a few questions.

agree
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 08/03/2016 3:18 PM

The ADA applies to business (private or public).

Actually, I should clarify.

The ADA applies to buildings that are open to the public (both businesses and non-businesses).

Unless the Association has a building open to the public (pool, clubhouse, etc.) then the ADA is not applicable. However, the FHA is applicable.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
Y'all will be surprised what information is needed to allow a 'therapy animal'.

Attachment as per: http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/PIRC/DocumentsAbstracts/Disability-Law-Center-R8/Letters/DLC-Animal-Letter/Sample-letter-for-Companion-Animal.doc
📎 Attachments (1):

⏸ Downloads temporarily unavailable

📄184235474371.pdf(36 KB)
LindaK5 (California)
Posts: 242
Posted:
PitA ....this letter is something we can require? I'm pretty leery of asking someone whether or not their dog is a service or therapy animal. The ADA website stipulates you can't demand "proof" that the dog is service/therapy. I don't want the Association to get used because we're asking proof.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaK5 on 08/04/2016 8:00 AM
PitA ....this letter is something we can require? I'm pretty leery of asking someone whether or not their dog is a service or therapy animal. The ADA website stipulates you can't demand "proof" that the dog is service/therapy. I don't want the Association to get used because we're asking proof.

Linda,

The ADA rules are not applicable here.

The FHA rules are the ones that are applicable.

As I've shown in the links provided, under the FHA rules, you may ask.
The letter provided by John came from the government website as an example for Doctors to use when such information is requested.

I would suggest printing out the form and asking the individual to have a Dr fill it out.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Tim,
This isn't a service dog or therapy dog. That's pretty clear if the provided accounts of behaviour and owner comments are accurate.

I think that asking them to fill out a form is akin to saying "We'll let your dog stay, even though it's a rule-breaker, if you find a "doctor" to fill out this form *wink* *wink*".

If this dog really is running loose, and the story has changed several times, I would jump right to issuing a violation notice (or compliance request letter) for the cited behaviour, up to or including that based on information provided to the board (the ever-changing stories) that the board has concluded it is not compliant with the rules.
JamesG11 (Florida)
Posts: 118
Posted:
This is a very nuanced area of the law and a hotbed of litigation nationally.

Feel free to solicit opinions here to gain some additional "color" on an issue, but please seek and retain experienced counsel in your state to actually advise your Association on what can and cannot be done.

Any Board of Directors -- or member of a Board of Directors -- who relied upon anonymous posts on a website to guide his or her actions would be guilty of the grossest breach of his/her fiduciary duties.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JamesG11 on 08/04/2016 10:40 AM
This is a very nuanced area of the law and a hotbed of litigation nationally.

Feel free to solicit opinions here to gain some additional "color" on an issue, but please seek and retain experienced counsel in your state to actually advise your Association on what can and cannot be done.

Any Board of Directors -- or member of a Board of Directors -- who relied upon anonymous posts on a website to guide his or her actions would be guilty of the grossest breach of his/her fiduciary duties.

http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/PIRC/DocumentsAbstracts/Disability-Law-Center-R8/Letters/DLC-Animal-Letter/Sample-letter-for-Companion-Animal.doc

Hardly anonymous. Extremely specific and identifiable.

JamesG11 (Florida)
Posts: 118
Posted:
Alas, Mr. PitA, you apparently have some challenges with reading comprehension. My statement did not address any specific comments or links presented; it simply issued a general caveat with which no legal professional would quarrel.

I reiterate my statements in full. They are intended as a well-intentioned warning from someone who has litigated and advised clients on these issues for many years, but you are free to give it whatever weight you deem appropriate.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
The issue for Linda's board mainly is the problem of the dog funning around off-leash despite the HOA's rules.

The issue is not that the residents change their stories, or FHA. Is the problem you/your Board have no proof the dog is off-leash, Linda? Is that why you haven't called the residence Owners to a hearing??
LindaK5 (California)
Posts: 242
Posted:
We had a tenant and resident see the dog off leash ... no pics.

I'm curious ... the homeowner did offer up the "papers" showing the legitimacy of the dog being a service dog. Since I have this in an email from her, would it be acceptable to ask for it? Personally, I think she is bluffing.
JamesG11 (Florida)
Posts: 118
Posted:
//We have a tenant who has a large American Eskimo dog - runs loose and out of control in the community. These tenants have been ongoing problems since they moved in and unfortunately, one is the son of the owner, along with baby mama and a couple of kids. On one occasion when the dog was loose, the tenant was asked who the dog belonged to and she said her parents. When I contacted the homeowner, she said the dog was the tenant's and for PTSD from serving our country. Really laid it on thick when I questioned about the dog. I was very careful in questioning, but am wondering where to go from here. Dogs over 35 pounds are not allowed in the community - except for service/therapy animals. I really don't think this one is either of those and right now, the dog appears to be living there full time.//

Hi Kerry,

As I read the OP's post the issues are two-fold; initially, she makes mention of the unleashed dog running unattended through the neighborhood, but her primary concern seems to me to relate to the FHA/assistance animal issue. If I am mistaken in my interpretation, I welcome correction by the OP.

If I were advising this Board, I would recommend that a letter be sent to the homeowner and the tenants that makes mention of the fact that the dog has been witnessed running loose in the community on multiple occasions and needs to be on a leash when out and about in the community (I'm assuming, of course, that the subject CC&Rs require dogs to be leashed under such circumstances, as is typical). Even if the dog qualifies under the FHA as an assistance animal (and absent extraordinary circumstances), it would still have to be leashed while outside if everyone else's dog is required to be leashed per the CC&Rs.

However, since there was a substantive conversation between a Board member and the homeowner touching on the alleged characterization of the dog as an assistance animal, the letter should also note: (a) the fact that the CC&Rs prohibit dogs weighing in excess of 35 lbs. from being kept in the community unless they qualify as assistance animals, and (b) that any request for the assistance animal exception to apply to the dog in question should be requested in writing and supported by reliable documentation of a disability and the person's disability-related need for the assistance animal.

Keep the letter cordial in tone, and be sure to run it past experienced Association counsel before sending it out.

These are very serious issues, and must be handled with care and under the guidance of counsel. If some of you on this thread are still not convinced, I would suggest that you examine the Justice Department's page here:

https://www.justice.gov/crt/recent-accomplishments-housing-and-civil-enforcement-section

Among the "recent accomplishments" noted are the following:

//On August 2, 2016, the court entered a consent order in United States v. Blass (D. Kan.). The complaint, which was filed on August 1, 2016, alleges that defendants violated the Fair Housing Act on the basis of disability by sending their tenant with a disability a letter strongly suggesting that she move out of their property and into a property better suited to fit her disability. The complaint also alleges that defendants coerced and interfered with the tenant because she had previously filed a HUD complaint against defendants asserting her right to keep an assistance animal. The consent order requires defendants to pay $5,000 to the tenant and to provide her with a letter apologizing for their actions.

On July 15, 2016, the Division filed a Statement of Interest in Arnal v. Aspen View Condo. Ass’n (D. Colo.), a lawsuit alleging discrimination on the basis of disability and retaliation under the Fair Housing Act. The plaintiff, the owner of a condominium unit, alleges that his condominium association improperly denied a reasonable accommodation to its “no dogs” policy to allow his tenant to keep a service dog that assisted her with her epilepsy, and that the condo association retaliated against him for allowing the tenant to keep the dog by issuing fines. The Statement of Interest argued that a plaintiff may maintain a retaliation claim even in the absence of an underlying discrimination claim and that evidence that defendants’ imposition of fines on a unit owner for allowing a tenant the requested accommodation supported a prima facie case of retaliation under Section 3617, notwithstanding the tenant’s alleged failure to provide what the condo association considered to be adequate and timely documentation of her disability and disability-related need for an accommodation.

***

On February 8, 2016, the court entered a consent decree in United States v. Schimnich (D. Minn.). The complaint, which was filed on November 15, 2013, alleges that the owner and manager of a three-unit residential rental property St. Cloud, Minnesota violated the Fair Housing Act by refusing to rent an apartment to the HUD complainant because she used an assistance animal. The consent decree requires the defendant to pay $2,000 to the HUD complainant, to adopt a reasonable accommodations policy and to obtain fair housing training.

On January 22, 2016, the court entered a consent decree in United States v. Brooklyn Park 73rd Leased Housing Assoc., LLC (D. Minn.), a Fair Housing Act case alleging that the owners and managers of an apartment complex in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota placed undue conditions on a woman’s request to live with her assistance animal and then refused to renew her lease. The consent decree requires the defendants to pay $35,000 to the woman and to adopt a reasonable accommodations policy and obtain fair housing training.

***

On January 7, 2016, the court entered a consent order in United States v. Christensen (D.S.D.). The complaint, which was filed on September 18, 2015, alleged that the owners of an apartment complex refused to allow a tenant to have an assistance animal as a reasonable accommodation to the no-pet policy. The settlement requires defendants to pay $6,000 to the HUD complainant.

On December 23, 2015, the United States Attorney's Office filed a Fair Housing Act complaint in United States v. Trump Village Section IV Inc. (E.D.N.Y.), alleging that a housing cooperative in Brooklyn, New York refused to allow an Army combat veteran with PTSD and two other residents with disabilities to live with their emotional support animals and then retaliated against them for exercising their fair housing rights.

***

On September 4, 2015, the court entered a consent order in United States v. University of Nebraska at Kearney (“UNK”) (D. Neb.), in which the United States alleged that two former students with disabilities were denied the right to keep assistance animals in their university apartments. The United States also alleged that UNK’s no-pet policy, which exempted animals owned by Residence Hall Directors and service animals under the ADA, constituted a pattern or practice of discrimination. Under the consent order, UNK will: (1) pay $140,000 to the two former students who sought and were denied reasonable accommodations to keep assistance animals; and (2) change its housing policy to allow persons with psychological disabilities to keep animals with them in university housing where such animals provide necessary therapeutic benefits.//

These are only a few examples of the potential adverse consequences that might befall an association in this context. There are many, many more examples that can be cited.
LindaK5 (California)
Posts: 242
Posted:
James - as Secretary on the Board, I have done everything you have mentioned. She has received a letter regarding the issue and also reminding her of the policy regarding dog weight and the dog being under control and leashed. Beyond that, I have had e-mail conversations with her - I am VERY careful to not be accusatory, but remain cordial in all of my communication as I am only one person on the Board and decisions are made by the Board, not just me.

Personally, I think this homeowner is lying. The story changes - apparently, the dog is back. It clearly exceeds the weight limit, but if it indeed is a service or therapy dog, the weight limit doesn't count in that case. I was concerned about asking for "proof" of service/therapy as when I visited the ADA website, I understood that we are not allowed legally to ask whether or not the dog is a service/therapy dog. What I'm learning here, though, is that FHA trumps ADA requirements? I'm not going to jump on that bandwagon unless I have absolutely proof in a touchy issue like this, as it could get the Association in big trouble.

The homeowner DID volunteer to provide the Board with "proof" that the dog is a service animal. But, at that point in time, the dog was only there temporarily, so the offer was off the table. Now, apparently, the dog was seen in the community, so I would like to ask the homeowner if she is still willing to provide the documentation that the dog is actually a therapy or service dog. I think she is bluffing and that is why she didn't follow through initially.

This homeowner is a liar and I have no problem saying that - we have had so many issues with the tenant (her son and others) - in fact, there is very suspicious activity going on there and the local police have been notified and are watching the residence. It's amazing how one tenant can really bring down an entire community!!!! So frustrating. To me, this is nothing more than a parent providing housing for an adult child that can't make it on their own because they are so irresponsible and now the entire community has to suffer for it.
LindaK5 (California)
Posts: 242
Posted:
James - our Declaration ALLOWS service and/or therapy dogs, whether they exceed the 35 pound weight limit or not. This is not the problem. The problem is that the dog was off leash and out of control - seen three times like this. Doesn't exactly sound like service/therapy dog behavior to me!

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveD3 on 08/04/2016 10:26 AM

I think that asking them to fill out a form is akin to saying "We'll let your dog stay, even though it's a rule-breaker, if you find a "doctor" to fill out this form *wink* *wink*".

Yes, that is one way to look at the form.

Another way is that they are claiming it's a therapy/service animal. To prove said claim, we need a statement from your Dr.

I would word it as:

Sir,

I understand that you are informing us that the animal in question is a therapy/service animal. In accordance with the Fair Housing Act, we request that you provide a letter from your Doctor to support your position.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I must be missing something, Linda. Why hasn't the residence's owner been called to hearing since his residents are violating the leash rule? You already, it seems have written to the Owner about the off-leash problem. One warning should be enough.

Fining Owners can deter such behavior. If the tenants are engaged in other behaviors that violates your rules, send them a warning letter and if they don't comply, invite the Owner to a disciplinary hearing.

If they are breaking laws, then, of course, the police should called.
JamesG11 (Florida)
Posts: 118
Posted:
//What I'm learning here, though, is that FHA trumps ADA requirements?//

I wouldn't state it that way. The ADA and the FHA are directed to similar, but different, concerns; the ADA applies to state and local governmental programs, services, activities and facilities and to "public accommodations" (e.g., retail stores, restaurants, universities, etc.). By way of contrast, the FHA applies to virtually every type of housing, privately owned or publicly owned/assisted. The reach of the FHA extends to virtually all community associations (whereas the reach of the ADA is severely limited in the context of community associations). Tim has cited several helpful links to provide you with an overview if you wish to drill down deeper in appreciating the differences between the two statutes.

You mention that you've sent a letter and exchanged emails with someone, but from what you have shared, it appears to me that those exchanges occurred with the homeowner. The real party in interests here seems to be the tenant, however. Perhaps you also have corresponded with the tenant, but that isn't clear to me in reviewing your post.

If the tenant -- OR the homeowner -- has been violating your CC&Rs, then you need to: (a) notify the tenant of the specific provisions within the CC&Rs that he/she is purportedly violating, (b) provide a copy of those provisions to support your position with that letter, and (c) make demand for compliance.

Furthermore, if relations with the homeowner and/or tenant have in fact degenerated to the point where the "entire community [is] suffer[ing]," then you need to get experienced Association counsel involved stat.

//James - our Declaration ALLOWS service and/or therapy dogs, whether they exceed the 35 pound weight limit or not. This is not the problem. The problem is that the dog was off leash and out of control - seen three times like this. Doesn't exactly sound like service/therapy dog behavior to me!//

I realize both that your CC&Rs recognize an exception for "service and/or therapy dogs" and that your principal concern with the dog's BEHAVIOR. I remarked to such effect in an earlier post. However, the fact that the animal runs loose on occasion is not dispositive of the question of whether it is -- or is not -- an "assistance animal" under law. If, for example, the facts turn out to be that: (a) the tenant has an emotional disability (e.g., PTSD), and (b) a physician, psychiatrist, social worker or other mental health professional provides you with an opinion that the animal provides emotional support that helps meaningfully reduces or eliminates a symptom of that condition, you are inviting a serious liability should you/your Board not accommodate that tenant -- irrespective of whether you believe the tenant and/or the mental health professional is completely full of it.

I'll say it one more time: if relations with the homeowner and/or tenant have in fact degenerated to the point where the "entire community [is] suffer[ing]," then you need to get experienced Association counsel involved stat.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
In most CA governing docs, James, including those of our HOA, the Owner is responsible for the conduct of their tenants, employees, invitees, etc. Now, it makes sense to send copies of the warning letters to the tenants, but the Owner must get these letters.

So, it's the Owner who must be invited to a hearing if their tenants allegedly violate the rules. The Board might agree to include the tenant at such a hearing, but is not required to in CA.

IMO, Linda needs to halt any communication with the tenant and only deal with the Owner in writing citing the specific rules or covenants that have been allegedly violated.

It seems to me that it's a little early to pay an attorney about the loose dog since the HOA Board, so far as I can tell, has not tried to fine the Owner for the loose dog. IMO, the Board is irresponsible for not enforcing its governing documents. If a another resident gets bitten or knocked down by this rather large loose dog, which residents have reported to Linda or the Board, Linda's HOA could be liable.

Now if Linda wants to share all of the other activities that bother the entire community, I might see it differently an suggest an attorney too.
JamesG11 (Florida)
Posts: 118
Posted:
//In most CA governing docs, James, including those of our HOA, the Owner is responsible for the conduct of their tenants, employees, invitees, etc. Now, it makes sense to send copies of the warning letters to the tenants, but the Owner must get these letters.//

Yes, that is consistent with the custom and practice here in FL as well, Kerry.

//So, it's the Owner who must be invited to a hearing if their tenants allegedly violate the rules. The Board might agree to include the tenant at such a hearing, but is not required to in CA.//

I'll happily defer to you on matters of CA law, Kerry, but I always recommend to my clients that the tenant also be made a party to the fine/suspension hearing when the tenant is the primary offender.

//It seems to me that it's a little early to pay an attorney about the loose dog since the HOA Board, so far as I can tell, has not tried to fine the Owner for the loose dog. IMO, the Board is irresponsible for not enforcing its governing documents. If a another resident gets bitten or knocked down by this rather large loose dog, which residents have reported to Linda or the Board, Linda's HOA could be liable.//

I respect your position on that, but here in FL, fines are not nearly as powerful a motivator of behavior as an attorney's demand letter is (primarily because most communities' governing documents do not allow fines to become a lien against the owner's real property).

I concur 100% with the thought that the Board's failure to act under the facts shared would likely give rise to Association liability should the dog knock over a person and cause serious injuries.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JamesG11 on 08/04/2016 1:25 PM

If I were advising this Board, I would recommend that a letter be sent to the homeowner and the tenants that makes mention of the fact that the dog has been witnessed running loose in the community on multiple occasions and needs to be on a leash when out and about in the community (I'm assuming, of course, that the subject CC&Rs require dogs to be leashed under such circumstances, as is typical). Even if the dog qualifies under the FHA as an assistance animal (and absent extraordinary circumstances), it would still have to be leashed while outside if everyone else's dog is required to be leashed per the CC&Rs.

However, since there was a substantive conversation between a Board member and the homeowner touching on the alleged characterization of the dog as an assistance animal, the letter should also note: (a) the fact that the CC&Rs prohibit dogs weighing in excess of 35 lbs. from being kept in the community unless they qualify as assistance animals, and (b) that any request for the assistance animal exception to apply to the dog in question should be requested in writing and supported by reliable documentation of a disability and the person's disability-related need for the assistance animal.

Keep the letter cordial in tone, and be sure to run it past experienced Association counsel before sending it out.

These are very serious issues, and must be handled with care and under the guidance of counsel.

Excellent advice.

This is what I was trying to point out but couldn't seem to put it into words (I also missed the fact that the OP is dealing with two issues and not one).
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
The presence of the (necessary) dog is not the problem/issue.

The behavior of the dog is the problem/issue.

ALL dogs in contact with the public MUST be trained and under the owner's control.

ALL - service, therapy, companion - PERIOD

The owner is directly responsible for the actions of their animal.

The BOD CAN and SHOULD take action against the dog's actions via the owner / tenant.
JamesG11 (Florida)
Posts: 118
Posted:
Hi Kerry,

In case you (or anyone else) may be interested, Section 720.305, Fla. Stat., provides, in pertinent part:

//(1) Each member and the member’s TENANTS, GUESTS, AND INVITEES, and each association, are governed by, and must comply with, this chapter, the governing documents of the community, and the rules of the association. Actions at law or in equity, or both, to redress alleged failure or refusal to comply with these provisions may be brought by the association or by any member against:
(a) The association;
(b) A member;
(c) Any director or officer of an association who willfully and knowingly fails to comply with these provisions; and
(d) Any TENANTS, GUESTS, OR INVITEES occupying a parcel or using the common areas.
The prevailing party in any such litigation is entitled to recover reasonable attorney fees and costs. A member prevailing in an action between the association and the member under this section, in addition to recovering his or her reasonable attorney fees, may recover additional amounts as determined by the court to be necessary to reimburse the member for his or her share of assessments levied by the association to fund its expenses of the litigation. This relief does not exclude other remedies provided by law. This section does not deprive any person of any other available right or remedy.

(2) The association may levy reasonable fines. A fine may not exceed $100 per violation against any member or any member’s TENANT, GUEST, OR INVITEE for the failure of the owner of the parcel or its OCCUPANT, LICENSEE, OR INVITEE to comply with any provision of the declaration, the association bylaws, or reasonable rules of the association unless otherwise provided in the governing documents. A fine may be levied by the board for each day of a continuing violation, with a single notice and opportunity for hearing, except that the fine may not exceed $1,000 in the aggregate unless otherwise provided in the governing documents. A fine of less than $1,000 may not become a lien against a parcel. In any action to recover a fine, the prevailing party is entitled to reasonable attorney fees and costs from the nonprevailing party as determined by the court.// (emphasis added)

I share this statutory background to provide context for my comments yesterday re: making the offending tenant/occupant a party to any enforcement action the Association may wish to pursue.

As you can see, the Florida Legislature has limited the effectiveness of fines as an enforcement/behavior modification tool by declaring that fines may not becomes liens against property if they are less than $1,000.00 in amount. The practical impact of that statutory clause is that unless the governing documents of the community expressly provide that fines levied by the association either constitute or may be treated as a lien against property, the use of fining is limited in its practical effect. Yes, the association can bring a small claims action against the offending owner, tenant, etc. to recover the amount of the fine and its reasonable attorney's fees and costs, but at the end of the day, unless the offending owner, tenant, etc. has assets that can be reached by post-judgment process, the association is throwing good money after bad. In my experience, utilization of an association's fining rights where the governing documents don't expressly authorize fines to become liens against the subject owner's real property is far less effective than engaging counsel to send a cease and desist demand and following up with an action seeking injunctive relief.

That's my GENERAL observation. Any good attorney knows, however, that general rules only carry you so far, and that the facts of each individual case are critical in advising his/her client.

Given the specifics we know from Linda's posts, I would strongly advise my client to engage counsel stat to send a cease and desist demand to the owner and the tenants. The primary reason for such advice is that a large dog roaming about a community unattended represents a serious risk of injury to all other residents and guests in the community AND THEREFORE COULD CAUSE THE ASSOCIATION TO INCUR VERY SIGNIFICANT LIABILITY IN THE EVENT THAT THE DOG WERE TO, FOR EXAMPLE, KNOCK OVER AN ELDERLY WOMAN WALKING ON THE SIDEWALK AND CAUSE HER TO BREAK A HIP, ARM OR SHOULDER. That cease and desist demand would be civil in tone, but very firm. It would apprise the recipients in no uncertain terms that any further incidents wherein the dog was observed roaming about the community would be cause for the filing of a lawsuit against the owner AND the tenants for injunctive relief without further notice, and would seek entry of immediate ("preliminary") injunctive relief and recovery of the association's reasonable attorney's fees and costs, which would be substantial.

Now, as a practical matter, I will readily concede that this approach makes far more sense in a larger, well-funded community than it may in a small, underfunded community. I generally represent the former and not the latter (although I have a few association clients with less than 500 homes). A substantial portion of my practice also involves the representation of individual clients bringing actions against their associations, so I like to think that I have a well-balanced perspective on such matters. In my professional opinion, not engaging counsel to deal with Linda's scenario -- at least based on what has been shared to date -- is myopic and risky.

Just my 2 cents, FWIW....
JamesG11 (Florida)
Posts: 118
Posted:
meant to have written:

//As you can see, the Florida Legislature has limited the effectiveness of fines as an enforcement/behavior modification tool by declaring that fines may not becomes liens against property if they are less than $1,000.00 in amount. The practical impact of that statutory clause is that unless the governing documents of the community expressly provide that fines levied by the association either constitute or may be treated as a lien against property AND THE FINE LEVIED AMOUNTS TO $1,000.00 -- OR A GREATER AMOUNT IF THE GOVERNING DOCUMENTS EXPRESSLY AUTHORIZE FINES IN EXCESS OF $1,000.00 -- the use of fining is limited in its practical effect.//
JamesG11 (Florida)
Posts: 118
Posted:
Kerry/Linda,

It appears that the efficacy of fining as an instrument of compliance enforcement is limited in CA as well -- at least in this law firm's judgment:

http://www.davis-stirling.com/CollectingFines/tabid/3206/Default.aspx

//Collecting fines is not impossible but it can be challenging.//
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
You make a good point, James. It's true in our HOA, however, that fines are effective and always have been paid in the 10 years I've been on the board. I'd say, though, we only levy maybe 6-8/ann. in our 200+ condo urban high rise HOA. Generally violations are noise nuisances or objects/liquids falling off of balconies. A courtesy letter in most cases takes care of alleged violations.

Also, re: fines, per our CC&Rs, we may withhold access to our gym, pools and Lounges if violations continue or if the violator doesn't pay the fine. We also may withhold access to Visitor Parking in our secure garage, a very desirable amenity in our 'hood.

We've never in 15 years had any problems.

So....maybe, as a deterrent or to gain compliance, fines are more challenging in detached-home HOAs, but I don't know.
JamesG11 (Florida)
Posts: 118
Posted:
Ultimately, it is all about leverage, Kerry. The more effective the leverage the association has in in exercising its right to suspend the offending party's access to highly desirable amenities, the more effective a fining/suspension process will be. In your case, you are fortunate to have those highly desirable amenities -- especially the secure garage. Now that I am aware of those additional facts, I would concur with your judgment that proceeding in the fashion you've advocated makes very good sense for your particular community.

LindaK5 (California)
Posts: 242
Posted:
Again - thanks to all for your valuable insight.

First of all - as a Board, we do not communicate with the tenant, only in case of emergency (fire, evacuation, etc.) Everything goes through the homeowner. In this case, a letter was written to the homeowner regarding the dog along with an e-mail. Our fine policy is that the homeowner is given 30 days to remedy whatever issue is at hand unless it is a health and safety issue (which, in my opinion, this is a safety issue). The first fine is $25. A meeting is scheduled wherein the homeowner is allowed to speak - homeowner in this case never attended a prior meeting for another offense, but offense was rectified and no fine was assessed. Personally, I don't like the fine policy - you have to wait 30 days for most of the "violations". If it's not corrected, you have to have another Executive meeting to assess the fine. If it happens again - you have to wait another 30 days. Seems like alot of work to me (especially since I'm the one handling 99.9% of all of this). In the 8 years I've been involved here we've yet to actually fine anyone. Everything gets corrected within days. I guess putting the fear of God (or fining) deals with the problems. In this case, no ....

Looking back over all the responses, speaking for myself and not the Board, I feel like I've missed something very important here. This is first and foremost a safety issue, wherein we can fine immediately. The unfortunately part in all of this (maybe not and I'm looking at this the wrong way) is that a tenant (my son) saw the dog off the leash twice and my husband (we don't live there, but he was at the community that day) actually talked to the tenant when the dog was off leash. I'm concerned that the homeowner will think this is a "he said, she said" sort of thing. She has already mentioned that she is "tired of all the nosy busy bodies in the community tattling on her". I wish I could have said "maybe you need to sell" ..... really had to bite my tongue on that one.

To address another comment - we are a small (48 townhomes) underfunded community. As reserves go, we're doing okay, but not up to the required amount. This community was VERY poorly managed before my husband and I came on board. A past president had her unlicensed contractor husband doing repairs for years and repairs were very, very shoddy. Eight years later, we're still fixing his messes. This, among many other things - a Board that had no clue how to manage a commmunity - financially or otherwise.

So, I'm dealing with two issues - an out of control dog (I will look into the safety issue of this and appropriate fining) and whether or not the dog is a therapy or service dog and hopefully, getting some sort of paperwork on the legitimacy of that.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
REPEAT:

Quote:
Posted By PitA on 08/05/2016 4:12 AM
The presence of the (necessary) dog is not the problem/issue.

The behavior of the dog is the problem/issue.

ALL dogs in contact with the public MUST be trained and under the owner's control.

ALL - service, therapy, companion - PERIOD

The owner is directly responsible for the actions of their animal.

The BOD CAN and SHOULD take action against the dog's actions via the owner / tenant.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaK5 on 08/05/2016 1:28 PM
Again - thanks to all for your valuable insight.

First of all - as a Board, we do not communicate with the tenant, only in case of emergency (fire, evacuation, etc.) Everything goes through the homeowner. In this case, a letter was written to the homeowner regarding the dog along with an e-mail. Our fine policy is that the homeowner is given 30 days to remedy whatever issue is at hand unless it is a health and safety issue (which, in my opinion, this is a safety issue). The first fine is $25. A meeting is scheduled wherein the homeowner is allowed to speak - homeowner in this case never attended a prior meeting for another offense, but offense was rectified and no fine was assessed. Personally, I don't like the fine policy - you have to wait 30 days for most of the "violations". If it's not corrected, you have to have another Executive meeting to assess the fine. If it happens again - you have to wait another 30 days. Seems like alot of work to me (especially since I'm the one handling 99.9% of all of this). In the 8 years I've been involved here we've yet to actually fine anyone. Everything gets corrected within days. I guess putting the fear of God (or fining) deals with the problems. In this case, no ....

Looking back over all the responses, speaking for myself and not the Board, I feel like I've missed something very important here. This is first and foremost a safety issue, wherein we can fine immediately. The unfortunately part in all of this (maybe not and I'm looking at this the wrong way) is that a tenant (my son) saw the dog off the leash twice and my husband (we don't live there, but he was at the community that day) actually talked to the tenant when the dog was off leash. I'm concerned that the homeowner will think this is a "he said, she said" sort of thing. She has already mentioned that she is "tired of all the nosy busy bodies in the community tattling on her". I wish I could have said "maybe you need to sell" ..... really had to bite my tongue on that one.

To address another comment - we are a small (48 townhomes) underfunded community. As reserves go, we're doing okay, but not up to the required amount. This community was VERY poorly managed before my husband and I came on board. A past president had her unlicensed contractor husband doing repairs for years and repairs were very, very shoddy. Eight years later, we're still fixing his messes. This, among many other things - a Board that had no clue how to manage a commmunity - financially or otherwise.

So, I'm dealing with two issues - an out of control dog (I will look into the safety issue of this and appropriate fining) and whether or not the dog is a therapy or service dog and hopefully, getting some sort of paperwork on the legitimacy of that.

As a general comment I agree your fine policy is for the birds. $25 is not enough to get someone's attention. And the 30 days to rectify is just to much time.
We first issue a written warning to the owner. If the violation occurs again the first fine is $100. The second violation for the same offense results in a $200 fine. If the violation occurs a third time the fine is then $300. Any more occurrences result in a continuing $300 fine for as long as it takes.

We have in fact issued fines. Once the word gets around the board is serious in their efforts to enforce the rules and regs. The need to fine dwindles.
Your current policy and lack of enforcement by the board can't be taken seriously. And in the end will be ineffective.
LindaK5 (California)
Posts: 242
Posted:
I definitely know this! I'd like to change the policy and increase the fines. This 30 day bit is ridiculous in my opinion. My concern right now is I would like information on statutes for fines in California. Would like to make sure we're doing this right and by the law.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Yes, Jon makes sense, Linda.

Your board needs to vote to change your fining policy. Why allow 30 days to correct a dog off leash? Or a noise nuisance?? Is that 30-day period in your governing documents?? what is the wording?

Send the letter and ask for immediate correction OR the Owners will be called to a hearing and potentially fined $xx.

Do you, Linda have a fine-doubling policy on repeat offenses like Jon & our HOA does?

Ours is $100 for first offense of dog off leash, then can be $200, then $400. We have the same for after-hours noisy parties on balconies.

(Most of our fines are $50 and after 1 a 1st warning letter to correct the behavior.)
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Yes, Jon makes sense, Linda.

Your board needs to vote to change your fining policy. Why allow 30 days to correct a dog off leash? Or a noise nuisance?? Is that 30-day period in your governing documents?? what is the wording?

Send the letter and ask for immediate correction OR the Owners will be called to a hearing and potentially fined $xx.

Do you, Linda have a fine-doubling policy on repeat offenses like Jon & our HOA does?

Ours is $100 for first offense of dog off leash, then can be $200, then $400. We have the same for after-hours noisy parties on balconies.

(Most of our fines are $50 and after 1 a 1st warning letter to correct the behavior.)

You deserves kudos for your & your husband's hard work. do you get any support from other directors?
LindaK5 (California)
Posts: 242
Posted:
Yes, fines increase per infraction.

Governing docs are pretty non-descript in regards to fines - basically, we can fine homeowners. Let them air their grievance at a meeting with the Board and fine if appropriate.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Linda, please vista davis-stirling.com, Due Process to learn the legal way to conduct hearings and levy fines in CA. These must be published, probably in your Rules & Regs or sent annually to Owners with the annual budget.

So review this so you & your Board can craft a proper list of things for which Owners might be fined, the notice you must give prior to a hearing, etc.

I promise you, though, there's no requirement in CA that alleged violators get 30 days to cure violations. That only makes sense in certain situations, usually architectural. Other violation obviously should be cured immediately. Read the info. Get your Board to help!
LindaK5 (California)
Posts: 242
Posted:
I will. Thanks, Kerry!
JamesG11 (Florida)
Posts: 118
Posted:
http://www.davis-stirling.com/tabid/1749/Default.aspx#axzz2DibvtWko

should get you started, Linda.

Good luck!

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