Our treasurer is being paid

Started by KarenE • 40 replies • 146442 views

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KarenE (Florida)
Posts: 5

Posted:

Our treasurer of our 114 lot HOA is being paid 250.00 a month and 1200.00 at the end of the year to do our taxes. I live in Florida and I'm told it may be illegal. What can be done about this? Many homeowners do not think that this is right for a volunteer board. The treasurer writes about five checks a month. Thanks

AudreyB (Florida)
Posts: 104

Posted:

Hi Karen,

This is a subject that gets to me BIG time. I live in FL too.
I am totally fed up with these Boards who do not look up the statues before they do anything, or if they do look it up, they totally ignore them.

If the statue of law says NO, the answer is NO.

First thing, you need to do Karen, is to make absolutely sure the treasurer IS NOT a volunteer. The Board could have hired him/her as hired help for monthly treasurer business, as well as tax preperation. Perfectly okay. Be sure your Board has pre allocated funds for the monthly and tax preperation expense(s) first.

Where the volunteer Board is concerned, the statue of law by the flsenate.gov web site, click Bussiness go to Corporations not for profit (617) then find 617.0505. That says in short, no portion of your dues distributed to its members is prohibited.

If you find out the treasurer IS a volunteer, and IS NOT hired to do Treasurer work or tax preperation, as well as the Board has no funds pre allocated for theses expenses,I would believe this treasurer owes your Association their money back. A real estate attorney who deals with Homeowner's Association's will be able to help you.

My Board went as far as to amend our articles of incorporation to pay themselves and called it gifts. Our new Association attorney told them that such an amendment does is not in compliance with the above statute I just gave you. So, they are in the process of rescinding their illegal amendment, and everyone who received and cashed their checks will have to return the amounts they were illegally paid back to our Association where it belongs. I'm the expection to this, as I voided my illegal check out and already knew my check was illegal long before I received it. I am a Board member from another Association, and already knew their amendment and receiving of such a check is and was illegal. The check is my proof.

Rock, Rattle, Roar, your Board to fix this illegal problem real quick, as it is against Florida law 617.0505, if the treasurer is NOT hired to pay him/her self every month and do the taxes, before you get other homeowner's together to go to the mandatory mediation, which cots $200, after which you and the other homeowner's will sue and win the Board individually and collectively in civil court having the Board pay all of your court costs and attorney's fees. The law is the law, and the statue of law, says NO.

Any problems? Please come back to me.

Good luck,
Audrey

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067

Posted:

KarenE, stated "Our treasurer of our 114 lot HOA is being paid 250.00 a month and 1200.00 at the end of the year to do our taxes." As the Treasure he should do them for nothing; or if he was awarded a bid as an independent contractor it was an outrageous price.

For the HOAs we manage we provide the assistance for filing IRS form 1120-H and Colorado corporation taxes at no cost. Filing is so simple it takes me less than a half hour to do both.

RogerB

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

it very much depends on your CCR's and the state laws. Our CCR's state that no BOARD member may be paid for his services (expenses on behalf the community, yes, but not services). However, our treasurer is NOT a board member; she is a hired accountant, whom we pay. She does NOT have a vote, cannot make policy, etc. (she is not a board member).

So, is your treasurer a board member? Do your CCR's forbid them being paid?

KarenE (Florida)
Posts: 5

Posted:

Yes, our treasurer is a board member, with a vote. Our CCR's don't address this issue as far as I know. I'll look into that. Karen

KarenE (Florida)
Posts: 5

Posted:

How do I know if he's been "hired" or not? He is a CPA by occupation. He is a member of the board as treasurer with a vote. I've been told our board is made up of volunteers, but this just seems to be a conflict of intrest to me. Thanks, Karen

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067

Posted:

BrianB, how can a non board member be an officer? I have never heard of an officer who is not a board member. Perhaps she is hired to preform accounting duties but is not actually the Treasurer.

RogerB

WardellD (Washington)
Posts: 64

Posted:

Again to add on to this the by-laws should give you guidance on this our by-laws state:
No trustee or officer, except the Executive Secretary and/or Assistant Secretary and/or the Assistant Treasurer shall receive any salary or compensation from the corporation.

WardellD (Washington)
Posts: 64

Posted:

Compensation: Now this is a good word, in my association we have people complaining that a board member should not be compensated for travel, parking and use of cell phone time. My question is why not if a board member is volunteering his/her services to the homeowners association and is doing or working for the association and has to travel to the bank, pickup mail, go to the court house, and parking that person should be compensated for that, but he should not be compensated for his time unless they fall into the categories of Executive Secretary and/or Assistant Secretary and/or the Assistant Treasurer as our by-laws say these people should be paid.

What do you think?

AudreyB (Florida)
Posts: 104

Posted:

Hi Karen

It is possible your CCR's may not say anything. However, you need to bring this to the attention to the Board, and make it very clear that Florida Statue of law, "617.0505 Payment of dividends and distribution of income to members prohibited; issuance of certificates of membership; effect of stock issued under prior law.--

(1) A dividend may not be paid, and any part of the income or profit of a corporation may not be distributed, to its members, directors, or officers...."

Continue to add what their consequences are, since you refuse to back down. If this Board refuses to listen to you, then they give you no choice but to take them to mandatory mediation. Afterwards, they will probably continue to do whatever they want to anyway, leaving you still no choice but to take them to civil court, where you, Karen, will win the court case, causing the Board to pay your attorney's fees and court cost. The Board not the homeowner's pay your court cost and attoreny's fees. Because they have made this mistake and refuse to correct it, the Judge will find that the Board not the members of the Assocition will pay from their own pockets.

The is no doubt, the law is very clear, this Board member is receiving a portion of the Association's dues, and because she/he is, this is called a missapropriation of funds. The treasurer has no choice but to return the money she/he has received thus far, or be brought up on legal charges for emezelment. These things are what I was told by an attorney, as I am not an attorney myself. Saying such things which are legally true, might get them off their behinds and fix there wrong. It is called, "emezelement, missapropriation of funds, especially when there is a statue to law that says,
"any part of the income or profit of a corporation may not be distributed."

These Boards do not expect anyone to challenge them in anyway. So, if this is a battle you have chose to fight, good for you, they are wrong and you are right. So, stick it out to the very end. Do not let this go. It is against the law of Florida for this to continue.

If you have any problems please feel free to contact me.

Good luck,
Audrey

AudreyB (Florida)
Posts: 104

Posted:

Wardell,

Once a volunteer always a volunteer. There is never ever any kind of compensation for doing any part of the Associations duties, EVER!

Karen lives in the state of Florida as I do. Our statue of law allows NO compensation for milage for doing Association's work. It is all volunteered. Until the Legislators in Tallahassee say otherwise, that is the way it is.

When you volunteer to be on the Board, your volunteer your time, your home, your computer, your phone, and your car. If you or someone disagrees, then you or that person need not be on the Board.

Our Statue of law says, no volunteer, no director, or officers shall be compensated.

If these volunteered Boards start compensating themselves for the small things, this quickly gets out of hand, and all the money for the Association goes into their pockets leaving nothing for the important things that may pop up in the future. This can and does lead to arrests.

The law in Florida clearly says, "NO. NO means NO compensation of any kind, PERIOD!

"These people" in Florida are usually compensated as your Association is being liquidate to no longer exist, and not before.

Take Care,
Audrey

WardellD (Washington)
Posts: 64

Posted:

Audrey

I disagree with that: Our by-laws state that we could hire a MC or pay the executive Secretary or Assistant Secretary or the Assistant Treasurer. If you have board members stepping up to do this and not asking for pay other then being reimburse for their expense for mileage, cell phone time and parking when going downtown for HOA business then they should be compensated for their expense. The amount of time a person works, taking time off from the job and anything else you can think of is volunteered.

You must understand doing the duties of the Secretary and Treasurer are very important task why do you think MC get paid for what they do.

What you are saying is everything is free: If I have a homeowner doing the newsletter and they are print out to 200 homeowners should they eat that expense? i.e paper, toner and just remember ware and tear on their machine.

We would love to have volulteers but we don't want to steal from them.

Thanks for your reply

AudreyB (Florida)
Posts: 104

Posted:

Hi Wardell,

What state are you talking about? I'm talking about where Karen and I live, in Florida. Florida State law says "No" compensation is not allowed for volunteers.

1) The Board allocates a portion of your dues for the monthly office supplies and expenses for the paper,toner, and ink. The Association takes care of the ware and tear on the equipment, and they also allocate the machine for either for repair or to buy a new one.

2) The Secretary or Newsletter person who types it unless otherwise written in the state laws and the bylaws, their time, their computer/typewritter, as well as his/her typing skills, is volunteered. Yes sir, it's free, and it is not stealing. These are people who are supposed to know what their duties are and what is expected of them prior to volunteering do so freely. That's what volunteering is all about. Volunteering is never stealing.

3) Are you aware that your Board of Director's has to allocate those monthly salaries for your Secretary and Treasurer each month? Where does the money these people get paid come from? Homeowner's dues.

4) What if these hired people both want a raise in their salaries? Where does the money come from? The homeowner's dues.

If you enjoy paying higher monthly or yearly dues for these people with whom your Association hires to do such jobs which are supposed to be volunteered freely, well sir, you are in a minoraty.

5) Where do you believe the money comes from to pay their increase in their monthly salaries? You and your fellow homeowner's pay them. The Board turns to the homeowner's to pay their increase in their salary. No homeowner votes to increase their dues to pay for hired help when the help is supposed to be freely volunteered. The Board does not need your permission to raise your dues unless your bylaws says they do. So, go right ahead, sir, and pay them for what they are supposed to volunteer freely.

Then, don't complain your dues have sky rocketed to pay for your hired help.

Bottom Line: Karen wrote that, her Treasurer who volunteered for the job is being paid $250 a month, and is also being paid for perparing her Association's taxes. In the State of Florida, the volunteered Treasurer cannot be compensated. Karen's Association can hire a CPA to do their taxes. If Karen's Bylaws says the volunteered Treasurer can be compensated, it does not meet with the laws of Florida's statute 617.0505, and therefore, has to be changed.

No homeowner's association should pay for volunteers. Homeowner's Association's as well as Condo's are not for profit corporations. Volunteers cannot and should not profit from other homeowner's dues for any reason or under any circumstances.

This is an expeirced homeowner with an Association who illegally amendemend their articles of incorporation to compensat their volunteers, and they are now rushing to rescind their amendment due to the laws of Florida mandates no compensation is allowed to their voluenteers.

Take Care,
Audrey

hoatalk (California)
Posts: 599

Posted:

I believe the word, "Compensated" may be the issue here. If you are hired by a company and get a salary for your work, that is your "Compensation". However, if you pay $20 for business copies at the local copy shop and your company gives you $20 to cover that, then that is not "Compensation", it's "Expense Reimbursement" in the eyes of the company and the IRS (it's not taxable income to the employee).

So, issuing "Expense Reimbursements" to Board or committee members for reasonable & necessary actual out-of-pocket expenses, car mileage (above and beyond a basic commute to a local meeting), etc. should not be considered "Compensation".

Paying a Board member for their time to perform a duty would be "Compensation".

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AudreyB (Florida)
Posts: 104

Posted:

I appreciate your input.

I agree that there is a difference between "Compenatation" and "Expense Reimbursement".

What started this discussion was, Karen said she knows of a Board member, who lives in Florida, is being compensated $250 to do Treasurer work. In Florida this is against the statues of law. This person is also allowed to vote on Board issues. Also a big NO-NO.

If this person was hired, then she/he could be compensated, and not be able to vote on Board issues.

I agree with the reasonable "Expense Reimbursments". Some Boards do not know the difference between Compensation and Expense Reimbursements", or when it's proper to reimburse, or even understand what the word reasonable means either. So there's the dilemma.

The Legistlator's of each state needs to be more clear and precise about this very important issue. Too many Boards, like my own, are doing things illegally.

Thanks again,
Audrey

AudreyB (Florida)
Posts: 104

Posted:

AnthonyD3 (Arizona)
Posts: 8

Posted:

I am the Treasure in our association. It is a conflict of interest for a Treasurer to be paid for work in his field on his own HOA. he can be hired legally by other HOA's but should step down if he is doing that in the capacity for his own HOA. Most declarations have a clause and code of ethics in the CC&R's for this the whole Board can and should be recalled for this. If you let this go you are as much as condoning it. First look in your Governing Documents then copy the appropriate article or rule of ehtics, print a flier and let the whole community know by distributing them. Then at the next open board meeting bring it up and in additiond write the appropriate authority to have the board partially or completely recalled. In addition there should be restituion from the Treasurer of all funds paid to him while acting as Treasure in his own HOA. A civil suit may need to be filed. Find out who the associations lawyer is and notify them of your concerns as well. I hope some of theses steps help.

BarbaraS (New Mexico)
Posts: 49

Posted:

We are a small HOA (22 units) which has been run very casually - the membership likes it this way. Our Treasurer also acts as our bookeeper and gets a very small stipend for this. She is not being paid as our Treasurer. She is a retired teacher and not a professional bookkeeper. Our by-laws do not prohibit payment to an officer, but does state that a paid-officer does not have voting rights. Can our Treasurer wear "two hats?" Is this a prerogative of our membership - they want it this way.

I have tried to get HOA codes from our state attorney general's office (NM) but so far no response.

AnthonyD3 (Arizona)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Mew Mexico does have these statutes. It really doesn't make a difference how small your HOA is it still should meet the guide lines. There is no law about how cusual your HOA is run however there are payment guidelines and volunteer requirements. A Board member consist of a director that directs the the affairs of the association. A director need not be a homeowners but must not be paid by salary nor stipend or honorarium nor gift. Avolunteer is just that.

AudreyB (Florida)
Posts: 104

Posted:

Amen, Anthony!

Thank you so much,
Audrey

BarbaraS (New Mexico)
Posts: 49

Posted:

More on this subject. We are not incorporated. Our Treasurer prepares the annual budget. She also acts as bookkeeper, paying bills and sending out notices etc, The membership, not the Board, wanted to give her a small stipend for her work as bookkeeper, not as Treasurer (she is not a professional bookkeeper.

I cannot get a response from NM as to the states HOA codes - which department would handle this? Your help appreciated.

AnthonyD3 (Arizona)
Posts: 8

Posted:

It's not the memberships responsibility to enforce thee CC&R's nor abide by the law it is the Boards responsibility to legally comply with state and local laws regarding HOA's. The membership cannot force anyone to break the law nor induce them to.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067

Posted:

Barbara, it is legal for the board to hire a board member to perform duties for the association. Just make sure it is done in the proper manner - she should recuse herself from all aspects of this board activity; they should get sealed bids; and if she wins the bid then the board can hire her as an independant consultant. Payment of $250.00/month may win a competative bid, but $1200 to prepare taxes is much more than others would charge. Incorporation is not a factor.

RogerB

AnthonyD3 (Arizona)
Posts: 8

Posted:

recusal is not enough for it is a conflict of interest for a Board member while serving a term of tresurer and getting paid whether or not it is in their field. believe me as large as our association is of 1600 homes and such resistant homeowners as far as adhereing to the Covenantit is a full time chore for all board members.

BarbaraS (New Mexico)
Posts: 49

Posted:

To whom to you write in Fl to get the state HOA code? I am in NM and cannot get a response from anyone at the state level. I'm not too sure NM even has an HOA code. If it doesn't, what then? Our HOA has not incorporated as a non-profit. Does that make a difference?

hoatalk (California)
Posts: 599

Posted:

Go to www.conwaygreene.com
Click on the New Mexico Statutes Link
You will find statutes 47-7A through 47-7D for the Condominium Act.

Also look at the Corporate Code:
Cooperative Associations, 53-4-1 through 53-4-45.

This is all I could find.

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BarbaraS (New Mexico)
Posts: 49

Posted:

I have gone to "conway.greene". No help there. It addresses bldgs.I am now quering the Asst. Gov. hope to she forwards my request to someone who can help me. Fl law my be completely differnet from NM law. And we are NOT registered as a tax empty corp.

BarbaraS (New Mexico)
Posts: 49

Posted:

Thank you Roger. Our "treasurer/bookeeper" gets a stipend of $60 per month which hardly cover her covings and going. As to "sealed bids" - we do a little stuccoing, a little painting, and the board overseas the contracts - there are no other bids around - our "treasurer/bookeeper" knows the bank balance and just informs the Board whether there is enough money in the account to proceed with the required maintenance. No local is actually willing to take on the project. We only want to maintain the integrity of the owners' properties. Yours is the most "sensible" response I've had. The only alternative, according to the other responses is the elect another "Treasurer" who will as an intermediary with our "bookeeeper" to make sure funds are available. She is a most realiable person and her only vote is that "we do/not have the funds in the bank to do this." Where is the common sense on all this? I can understand HOAs who have a huge budget - but we are scraping. Thanks again for your inpur. We want to do things the right way, but have real questiona about eh beurocracy involed rather than common sens. Thank again. We're still waiting for some response from our State.

BarbaraS (New Mexico)
Posts: 49

Posted:

Did I tell you she is paid $60 a month? Doubt seriously if she'd get any competitive bids. But I appreciate your info and if it comes to that, we'll spend the $50 a month requesting bids - hope to include transportation and conference charges, which she does "just done the road". Thanks again. Appreciate your input.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067

Posted:

Sorry Barbara, I confused your HOA with the first post on this thread. I agree, at $60/month there is no need to get other bids. No one could compete! You are lucky to have a person willing to do the job at that cost.

RogerB

AnthonyD3 (Arizona)
Posts: 8

Posted:

I think you are missing the point. In as much as it is a point of law, it is the same as why public aervants can't accept gifts people like policemen, aldermen,county clerks,deputies and HOA Board members. It's a matter of ethical behavior and a conflict of interest. It perfectly ok for her to do the accounting and getpaid as long as she resigns from the Board.

BarbaraS (New Mexico)
Posts: 49

Posted:

Thank you Anthony for your reply. Am I to assume that this issue would be regulated state by state? I'm still waiting for someone here to help my find the NM state HOA code. I disagree with this being considered an ethical consideration. We think it would be unethical not to give this retired teacher $60 a month to cover her expenses - if she itemized expenses we're sure they would be at least this much. Her time spent as Treasurer is completely volunteer. We consider her "two hats" completely separated from each other.

AnthonyD3 (Arizona)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Barbara, it is very clear that you are sympathetic toweard your treasurer. but the conflict is clearly defined in the fact that paid and volunteer does not peacefully coexist. The ethical delimma is hers in this fact and legal with the board. It is illegal for the Board to pay a Board member. it is a conflict of interest and unethical for a Board member to receive payment for duties. It is permissable for expenses to be paid for on behalf of those duties but not to the tresurer in advance unless it is directly to a company ie Like a check to Kinkos for copies or office Max for cartridges or supplies. But a check should never go to a Board member directly as a payment nor cash be dispensed.It sure will make your HOA a legal and above board organization. it is not required for an Hoa to be INC.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067

Posted:

AnthonyD3, according to attornies, in Colorado it is legal to be a board member and to be hired separately as an independent consultant such as a bookkeeper. It is not legal to pay board members for serving on the board. Are you confusing the two? Otherwise what state and statute are you referencing?

RogerB

AudreyB (Florida)
Posts: 104

Posted:

Roger,

FL statute 617.0505 says, "Payment of dividends and distribution of income to members prohibited; issuance of certificates of membership; effect of stock issued under prior law."

"... and distribution of income to members prohibited..." So, how is it "legal to be a voting board member and to be hired separtely as an independ consultant such as a bookkeeper? Don't you agree there's a conflict of interest here?

Secondly, how can attornies consider, it's perfectly legal for a member to wear two hats? In FL there's the ethic and the conflict of interest Anthony speaks about. Most states do not allow a Board member to also be allowed to be paid a salary.

I do not have know where Anthony lives. He is right.

Audrey

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067

Posted:

AudreyB, there certainly is an appearance of confilict of interest in hiring a member of the association as a contractor. That is why I stated the procedures the board should follow to maintain "clean hands" and thus reduce the appearance of improper conduct. But keep in mind that in the case we are discussing that the members have agreed thus removing the appearance of impropriety. Nevertheless, if it was me, I would resign from the board to remove any potential appearance of conflict of interest.

Do you think the Florida statue you quote precludes hiring a company for which a member is an employe? If so, is the HOA criminating against that company? We all wear at least two hats when we serve on a Board and also work at a day-time job.

I think the statue you quoted is to prevent payments to members, other than reimbursements, for serving on the Board or committees as previously discussed.

RogerB

AnthonyD3 (Arizona)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Roger I don't think this statute is precluding reimbersements but is is to stop what you mentioned the appearance of impropriety. There is a national HOA association that also helps bring a standard to the different states minor differences. There is a national standard that HOA's must meet and states can be stricter than the national standard but not more lenient. For instance there is a federal housing standard all states can increase its standards and requirements differently however they may not fall below them.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067

Posted:

Again Anthony, can you please provide the state and statute to which you keep referring to as "this statute".

RogerB

BarbaraS (New Mexico)
Posts: 49

Posted:

Anthony. Do you have an on-line site where I can get the national HOA standards? I still have no word from my state of NM. B

AudreyB (Florida)
Posts: 104

Posted:

Roger,

From the beginning of the subject of the Treasurer being a Board member and also being hired and paid as a Treasurer, has been beaten to death and has about twelve pages worth of wonderful opinions on this subject, that the Treasurer in question should remove themselves from the Board first in order to be hired and paid as Treasurer.

The statute I quoted says in my words, a board member may not be compensated for volunteering. There's the conflict of interest as long as this Treasurer who lives in Florida as I do, remains on the Board and being paid is against the statute of Florida law. This volunteer is being illeally paid. This Treasurer who is refusing to resign themselves as a board member, needs to be recalled, and pay back the money they have illegally received to date, back to the HOA. Afterwards,I would hope the HOA would save themselves lots of money and find themselves a new volunteer Treasurer who has no interest in being hired.

The answer to your question, do I think the Florida statute I quoted precludes hiring a company for which a member is an employee? To avoid any conflicts or conflicts of interest, in the long run, it makes better business sense for a HOA, and would also be doing themselves a tremoundous favor, to hire a firm other than one the Board member works for.

Secondly, it depends on what the company requirements/rules are for having a second job after hours, and whether or not the company rules also includes HOA's.

Thirdly, the HOA is under no obligation to hire the entire firm/company the board member works for. To save themselves lots of money, just hire the board member who has to first resign their volunteered position.

I do not understand why this volunteer doesn't see they got themselves a raise from receiving nothing to being paid $250 a month. Quit the volunteer position, for the hired position of Treasurer. Make cents (play on spelling) to me.

Reminder, my FL HOA amended to illegally compensate our volunteers. So, I have a funny great example: We could not find a volunteer committee member for the illegally paid data entry position. So, the President sent out the message she would be willing to hire any member of the Association for this position, and remembered to mention that they would in no way be a board member.

Take care,
Audrey

AudreyB (Florida)
Posts: 104

Posted:

Hello Everyone,

I have a news flash to the subject of compensating board members.

Reminder of my short story: My BOD's illegally amended our articles of incorporation in 2004. Our new HOA attorney states that their amendment is not in compliance with the FL statutes, therefore, this illegal amendment was recently rescinded.

This just in today: My new HOA's attorney is in the process of sending out letters, requesting those who received their illegal compensation at our HOA's annual meeting in October 2005, needs to return the amount written on their checks back to our Association immediately.

The bottom line is: A volunteer BOD's cannot be compensated in FL.

From the beginning of the subject of the Treasurer being paid and remaining on the Board. If a volunteer, who is on the Board wants to be hired, they first have to resign from the Board. No resignation, NO compensation.

My FL HOA has now learn a valuable lesson for everyone to learn from, not to repeat their mistake, as well as has set a precedent for BOD volunteers everywhere (I hope) to not ever be compensated.

Audrey

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