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LindaL

Posts:0

02/15/2006 12:43 PM
I have made alot of very negative remarks about Management Companies. I live in Southern California and we have our share of problems with them. However, I know there are some MC's on this list and they may be very good MC's and I don't wish to offend them and hope you will keep my remarks in perspective. Also keep in mind that there are alot of things that I know and won't share. Linda

EdR
(Texas)

Posts:170

02/15/2006 2:04 PM
LindaL: Same here, however, I do not see that we can offend anyone if we do not name names. I also realize that it isn't fair to "tar everyone with the same brush"--that there are some decent MCs out there. I have been on a board for five years and have dealt with MCs from the board and in HOAs as a member almost 40 years (I honestly do not remember when was the first HOA but I've owned houses for 40 years). Before MCs came into the picture, communities were run well with caring people. I realize that no one has the time now to volunteer and they don't do very much in the community because of hours spent commuting (I had volunteered until recently), but looking at the problems I've encountered, they started when MCs got too involved in taking the HOA away from their boards and members. The MC, in my opinion, should only take care of the accounting and maybe the inspections. Everything else should be spread out to differnt companies because SOME MCs cannot stay away from making deals with certain directors in order to keep their contract. I have seen this over and over. I wish it would stop because they are destroying themselves. And, I do not know WHO set it up that they are not responsible for anything--this just gives them a license to abuse. I believe this talk forum could be helpful in the long run to those of use trying to get help with this, and to the MCs who might be participants in these talks. I have actually been discussing with an attorney, the idea of starting an organization to manage HOAs by separating out all of the jobs and contracts so that we can get away from nepotism, conflicts of interest, favoritism, help with illegal elections, etc. If you have any ideas, I would love to hear it. My experience has been when I or anyone else asks the board for something they tell us to ask the MC; when we ask the MC they tell us to ask the board. We have never gotten help or an answer or copies of ANYTHING we've requested. This is all illegal, but you can't do anything about it. If there were no prisons, more people would be involved in crime--as long as there is no law or help in this area, we will not get anywhere--"the buck never stops". I feel we all have a right to voice our opinions here. Someone out there might not like the profession I'm in either, but if I heard complaints I'd look into ways to change for the better and stop the things that people were complaining about. EdR

KathyS
(California)

Posts:142

02/15/2006 5:19 PM
I would probably take offense to some of the things said if I were a manager because too often they are all put into the same barrell of bad apples even if they are a good apple. I don't mean to offend anyone either. I think the three of us live in California and we know what has happened in this State. Our laws favor the Boards, management companies and the attorneys NOT the homeowners. My husband was the Board President so we know the game quite well. He also knows, as I told Linda privately, this associations problems came about when the management company became involved. They became involved and alienated the homeowners from wanting to be part of anything. We too get the run around. Ask the Board, ask the Management company...no one will give us an answer. Our Board meetings are a waste of time. I go but I might as well stay home and watch another rerun of Mash. Our Board meetings ARE a rerun of the prior Board meeting and the one before that. Nothing is ever settled. Nothing is ever answered. Nothing the homeowners say is taken as good advice only advice the Board doesn't want to hear. Something is terribly wrong with the whole picture. I blame it on Boards who really don't want to be responsible for anything but like the idea of being on the Board for whatever reason. There are good people in this association that would be excellent Board members. We have accountants and managers and landscapers. People who know the business. Instead we have people who are elected through illegal proxies who know nothing about running a business. I doubt if this Board even knows this is a business. RogerB, I'm with Ed, if you could give us could advice it would be great. I know you aren't from California but maybe you could clue us in since you are a manager. We'd be greatful.

LindaL

Posts:0

02/15/2006 5:20 PM
In any event, nothing can or will ever get resolved if we aren't honest and open about our problems. As to ideas to make the management companies liable... I'll have to really give that some more thought. I had an emergency on Super Bowl Sunday and called our MC emergency number and never got an answer until late that evening and was told I couldn't expect emergency service on Super Bowl Sunday. He had the gall to say that. Then the next day they sent plumbers to the wrong location and ironically they needed plumbing work so they were doing unauthorized work at the wrong location; at the same time insisting that they were fixing my problem. I have had it with them. All I can do is and what I've been doing is documenting everything and submitting complaints in writing and they HATE that. Linda

LindaL

Posts:0

02/15/2006 5:53 PM
It appears that our board members have an agenda: control and pinching pennies (keeping the dues as low as possible). The President of the Board had a flea infestation because she has a wooden deck with possums living underneath. In order to get me to pay for her problem, she accused me of causing the problem because I have cats. I got a violation notice accusing me of owning cats with infestation of fleas. I wrote an angry letter back and demanded proof, etc and one week later my cat disappeared. The management company backed her 100%. It's el sicko. I wish California had a law regarding funding because that would really help solve alot of other problems. I would also like some input from RogerB or any others who can give input as to how to solve these problems. Linda

MarnaR
(California)

Posts:27

02/15/2006 6:17 PM
I'm in CA as well, and I get as frustrated as the rest of you. I'm newly elected to a board, and we're already running into issues with our management company. I've started to type my story into one thread or another of this forum at least 10 times, and always end up canceling my comment because 1)it's rivaling War and Peace for length and 2) we've all experienced the same things. In CA, Davis Stirling has been the main culprit. The spotlight has been shined on the rock, and the roaches are scurrying - some new laws are taking effect that would have been WONDERFUL years ago. So we're heading in the right direction, but there is still so much frustration to be had. The sad thing is that CA seems to be at the forefront of HOA reform. Florida may be there with us. But the rest of the country doesn't have statutes with teeth that allow homeowners to fight back when they are denied the right to see governing documents or to repeal rules they feel are unfair, etc. Community management is a big business, and I think that KathyS is right when she assigns blame to lackluster boards as well as to MCs. They're only too willing to step into the void left by a weak board. Why not? They make money off of it, through their monthly fee and through the vendors they refer to the association. In the past, we had a property manager who got our Rules and Regs rewritten to allow the PM and MC to grant permissions to homeowners - this is something that should NEVER leave association control. She enforced the governing documents at her convenience. Board members were always exempt. WIth the President's complicity, she regularly spent association funds well over and above the discretionary limit the contract awarded her. And then there were the elections.....okay, I'm telling my story, and I will stop before chapter 8 begins. NONE of this would have happened if the board had a spine. The abuses I suffered at the hands of the prior board and propert manager actually spurred me to pursue a law degree - I'm in year 2 of study - so that I could become an advocate for the homeowner. The next round of abuses got me and 4 others in the community running for the board. We were elected because the activism we required of our SoCal community was only to fill out a proxy. We have 12 months to make a difference, and we're already starting. One of our first actions was to send the landscape contract out to bid. And we have made the decision that, since we have a member who is skilled at contract negotiation, along with another member who has extensive contacts in the industry, we're excluding our MC from the bidding process. Too many unethical actions have been taken by agents of this company (to be found in chapters 8 and beyond of my story) for us to trust them with anything, and we don't feel that we have the need for their 'expertise' in contract negotiation. Once the MC found out what we were doing, they have started to try to stop us. Isn't that amazing? THEY work for US and they're trying to intimidate us to protect their turf. I know there are good MCs out there. I would dearly love to find one. In the interim, our MC will have to do, and they'll have to earn their fees from us on an uncomfortably short leash. Allow me to third or fourth the request to RogerB, whose advice has been reasoned and sound across the topics of this discussion board. Bad MCs are out there because of the largely unregulated nature of this business combined with the comparitive financial might of the HOA vs. the homeowner. It would be really great if we, through our conversations and efforts in our communities, could begin to turn the tide.

LindaL

Posts:0

02/15/2006 7:04 PM
Yes, the MC's are not regulated in any way that I can see and they know it which is why they can even sit in meetings and make fun of homeowners. I still feel that ombudsman program is a step in the right direction but we won't know until it takes effect and even then there will be alot of problems due to the fact that it's something very new. Linda

RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:3701

02/15/2006 8:52 PM
Several of you have asked for my input. I have been trying to give ideas and answers. What exactly you are now asking? I will say that IMHO many of the problems start with the apathy of homeowners, with poor boards, and with boards relinquishing too much authority to management companies. As long as there are enough homeowners willing to do the HOA jobs then do them and restrict the duties of a MC. Unfortunately, through the years it is often the same few people who do all the work and thus MC duties have increased. Remember that the MC is hired help and should be directed by the board. Don't let the tail wag the dog! Write an agreement which details what authority is granted to them and what the Agent must have approval to do before acting. IMO NEVER let them have access to your funds!! Duties may include accounts receivable; accounts payable including receiving and checking invoices, confirm accuracy, prepare checks, and mail checks. But why not have all checks signed by a board member or two (only 1 signature is required by banks). And with accounting reports have bank statements and other financial statements provided quarterly to check against their accounting. Regarding CAI, they do some good. They encourage education for managing agents and awards titles to certify the training. And they have some useful info on their web site. Many large MCs want their agents to join CAI; and they use the titles as credentials. We have taken several courses which provide CAI credits from O&H (now OrtenSanchez) and they do a great job. However, no one in our company is a member of CAI - we believe our results speak volumes over their certification. Solutions to lousy treatment by boards and Agents are best handled by the members. I know it can be very difficult to organize enough members to correct problems due to apathy. But it is the least expensive and most effective method IMHO. State laws can help but ultimately it is very expensive for an individual to use the legal system to correct problems. It would always be my last recourse. Well I have rambled enough except to say that it is because of poor boards and MCs that I decided to help by serving as an Agent and co-owning a MC. When I can answer specific questions I will do my best. RogerB

Roger Borcherding Official HOATalk.com Sponsor DARCO Property Management (Colorado) (303) 925-0150 *See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal

LindaL

Posts:0

02/15/2006 9:34 PM
I think you hit the send button a few times LOL!!! I really appreciate your input and have much to learn. Linda

MarnaR
(California)

Posts:27

02/15/2006 11:54 PM
RogerB Thanks so much for your response. In the case of my community, the MC we currently have was put in place by the builder. As far as we (the newly elected board) have been able to tell, none of the contracts have ever been renegotiated or even seriously scrutinized by anyone before us. We're stirring the pot now, and it's starting to get interesting. Or ugly. My comments which follow apply mainly to CA (where I live), but I also think that they could apply to CO (where I grew up, so I do have some knowledge), based on the HUGE growth over the past 15 years, combined with the inability of the infrastructure to keep up. CA and CO each have terrible traffic problems and similar problems with regard to where the jobs are located. Commuting is a way of life, and in both areas mass transit is not currently a realistic option. All of this translates into people spending much more time than they would like (and than in the past) on the activity of working. Combine this with the major influx of that rapidly growing virus, the Planned Community. I don't know the exact figures, but a significant amount of housing built in the past two decades has been PUDs. People buying in are buying into communities that have MCs already installed and I would hazard a guess that many, if not most don't read the CC&Rs and governing docs before buying the home. I know I didn't. SOOOO, many homeowners are walking into a situation set up by the builder, complete with boards installed by same. This is not to say that homeowners can't get involved and make a difference. It is to say that in all honesty, the deck is stacked against them from the beginning. Unless a homeowner is experienced in the ways of planned communities, the management company is going to have to bear the brunt of making sure the community works. Obviously they're going to do this with an eye to making sure their business is safe first rather than working to foster community spirit. From there, problems tend to breed. Okay, sociology soliloquy done, and I apologize. I feel so wordy here! RogerB's suggestions with regard to establishing controls are great suggestions, many of which I intend to bring up to our board. However, in order to implement these suggestions, boards must be working from a position of power, which many of us here are not. So I believe what we're looking for from anyone are ways to establish control. RogerB addresses this as well, and I can tell you from my experience that it can work but it is NOT easy. Overcoming homeowner apathy when they're dealing with life, commutes, family and the like, is damned hard. It can be done, but you have to have at least a medium skin, and not take it personally when homeowners tell you that it's not their problem, that they don't have time to care. You also typically need to have some sort of present or building crisis that impacts everyone. There are certainly ways to make community activism and response to same easier. If anyone is interested in the approach we took (with success, so far) in our community, please let me know. With regard to CAI, I'm again in agreement with RogerB, and I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to see that there are MCs out there who are not beholden to CAI's designations. That said, their website does provide good info, including a free download that I firmly believe should be part of a welcome package to anyone buying into a planned community about Association Living. It would alleviate a ton of problems simply by educating people about what the reality of living in a planned community is. I have also found that the info on their site is helpful with regard to helping Board members wishing to take the initiative become an asset to their community. I do not lose sight of why CAI exists, though. So, RogerB, I think what we're looking for here includes ways to gain or regain control from out of control MCs and Boards. (Homeowner involvement, to be sure, but what have you seen in your line of work that has been effective?) As well as ways to make sure that control in the association remains where it should be. I can share my story, but it isn't necessarily inspirational. I did, however, learn some lessons along the way that might be helpful, albeit more to CA homeowners. This forum has been a wonderful source of information and dialogue for me. I'd really like to see this thread yield some good results.

LindaL

Posts:0

02/16/2006 12:26 AM
I wish there were legal requirements that Board Members be made to pass some exam and receive some type of certification. I'm just brainstorming here. Also, some laws requiring realtors disclose pertinent information to potential buyers of HOA property AND MC's being liable IF they give advice, the board accepts their advice and things go awry, winding up with litigation. The MC's should at LEAST share the blame. The Ombudsman program should be able to legally resolve the problems and I'm sure that would have some impact on CAI Attorneys. Too bad. Linda

RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:3701

02/16/2006 8:30 AM
MarnaR, I agree with you. Very few homeowners read and understand the consequences of the Declaration which they automatically agree to when they buy property. With PUDs the developers have created the problem of locking in a MC for several years. And to terminate the MC can be very difficult. The Board can try to change the Agreement with the MC. The Board can also create policies and procedures (rules and regs) with which the MC must comply or they may be terminated for cause. Start by using an attorney hired by the association who is not with the MC. With regards to the idea of all board members having to attend classes to gain education, it is often difficult to get owners to volunteer to serve on a board. So I am against requiring this but do strongly encourage them to learn their job. We try to help educate board members with on-the-job SUGGESTIONS Sorry about my last message being sent 3 times, my computer locked up when I hit the send button. RogerB

Roger Borcherding Official HOATalk.com Sponsor DARCO Property Management (Colorado) (303) 925-0150 *See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal

LisaS
(Illinois)

Posts:339

02/19/2006 3:23 PM
Linda...if Board members were forced to pass an exam and be certified, it would lead to even less participation by those who care and more by those who wish to simply rule. There should indeed be more oversight, but more 'regulation' and 'government' is not (IMHO) the way to do it. So many problems with MC's are caused by lack of involvement and apathy on the part of Boards and association members. People need to accept their personal responsibility when they buy into an association. Be a part of the solution rather by going to meetings...rather than part of the problem by complaining from the Lazyboy. If it were easy to run an association, and the Declarations and State laws were easy to use and understand, MC's would be out of business. That's why the 'business' of MC's is so mired in secrecy in some places, impossible to contact them, get answers, documents, etc. It all equals money.

LindaL

Posts:0

02/19/2006 4:30 PM
Even if it did lead to that, so what? It would force HOAs to re-think the entire way that HOAs operate. What is in place does NOT work. As far as apathy... you can't wake the dead and it isn't going to change. Again... the current system doesn't work. The root of the problem IS money and that exists because incompetent Board Members have D&O Insurance and are apparently protected when they are non-compliant(?) Our association has NO legal representation because the MC has complete control. Homeowners won't get involved because they are intimidated and quickly become aware that you are dealing with a dictatorship or the worst kind. Linda

ElizabethM
(Arizona)

Posts:5

02/19/2006 5:23 PM
It is precisley that sort of anti-government sentiment which has lead to the neccessity of the HOA phenomenon to begin with. Too many people wanting too many rights and too little responsibilites. SO: As long as so many people want to rule, rather than serve, it stands to reason they should have SOME kind of qualifications and/or credentials.They are there to be explored by those who care to rule, or better yet, rule to CARE. Those who are not satisfied with this and not dead from the neck up can vote them out. Nothing's "pinko" about it.

ElizabethM
(Arizona)

Posts:5

02/19/2006 5:27 PM
Posted By ElizabethM on 02/19/2006 5:23 PM Lisa-It is precisley that sort of anti-government sentiment which has lead to the neccessity of the HOA phenomenon to begin with. Too many people wanting too many rights and too little responsibilites. SO: As long as so many people want to rule, rather than serve, it stands to reason they should have SOME kind of qualifications and/or credentials.They are there to be explored by those who care to rule, or better yet, rule to CARE. Those who are not satisfied with this and not dead from the neck up can vote them out. Nothing's "pinko" about it.

LindaL

Posts:0

02/19/2006 5:34 PM
I beg to differ. There are monumental problems with people serving on the Board who know absolutely nothing and either are non-compliant or abuse their power. You took everything that I said out of context. Linda

EdR
(Texas)

Posts:170

02/20/2006 6:17 AM
LindaL is correct. In TX the MCs have taken over the boards and are telling them what to do instead of vice versa. It is going to require a major overhaul to undo this atrocity. Our MC has three attorneys working for him telling him how to abuse us, and if he consults them, he charges our assn. If you are unlucky enough to get a president over your assn. who works with the MC to abuse the members also, and s/he is the only one who can communicate with the MC, you are into double trouble. Sorry, that's the way they and their attorneys make money--when you get a special assessment in your assn. because there are no monies left for handling the necessicities because it's gone out the window for frivolous attorney consultations, you will see (and it's too late) that you've been taken for a sweet ride! Sorry, that's just the way it's become--more Enronism! I used to be on a board, I know what's going on--no one knows right from wrong anymore and they don't mind using your assn. for personal interests and monies. Here in TX in a nearby assn. the president took off with $50,000 before they realized it--he's not president anymore--but they don't have their money back. There really don't need to be HOAs if this is what is happening and it IS happening. EdR

EdR
(Texas)

Posts:170

02/20/2006 6:20 AM
PS: $50K was a small amount; another one (nearby) took over $100K--what about the ones you don't know about. And you can go online and find these--that's how I found them. EdR

LisaS
(Illinois)

Posts:339

02/20/2006 7:00 AM
There seem to be way too many generalizations and the assumption that ALL HOA's are bad. Not so. I am the VP of our Board. We have no MC specifically because we have no need. We care to volunteer tons of our personal unpaid time (not complaining) to performing all the duties of the positions we accepted. We do it competently and professionally. We are a Realtor, an attorney, a sales manager, a tech manager, and a Building Maintenance manager. We go out of our way to make certain that everyone is treated fairly, with respect, and that all of our dealings are right out there for everyone to see. We post our financials on our website monthly because we have nothing to hide-not because we have to. We are not only Board members, we are homeowners here, neighbors here, and friends here. To say that because we want to serve we must be power hungry, prone to embezzlement or otherwise is absolutely ridiculous. Is everyone in our association happy? Of course not. That is impossible. But when there is a concern from a homeowner(i.e. assessment increase) we address it in full. Not everyone always agrees in the end, but they appreciate that we took the time to explain our position and hear their views. Am I naive enough to think that the 'bad' doesn't occur elsewhere? No. But...it is encumbent upon the association members to ensure that those things don't occur, or continue to occur. It is THEIR association. Adding restrictions, certifications, additional hoops to jump through only makes the burden of associations that much harder. If the goal is to get rid of MC's and their control, and that of tainted Boards...it seems to me it will just tighten it.

EdR
(Texas)

Posts:170

02/20/2006 9:11 AM
LisaS: So there you have it, you have no MC; your board still has control of the assn.; that's why you are working together and apparently amicably. It was not until our assn. had an MC, that they came between good, hard working directors, most of the time to protect their financial interests with no regard for what happened or is happening in our assn. Again, there are some good MCs out there--I'm still looking. I have experience--I've served every officership and directorship for two three-year terms; I did physical and mental work during that time, but what I found was that the MC contracted by our assn. did NOT WANT the board to be proactive, they wanted control and they have it now. Search websites for this--there are articles out there about "taking your HOA back". I am not wandering aimlessly with comments. What is happening is not just in our assn.; it's happening all over TX and apparently CA. Any time you have a director and an MC in bed with each other and they are keeping wrongdoings between themselves, it may take a maximum term of that director before the truth comes out. These things shouldn't be happening. An MC should tell the subject director, "this is not right--I won't get involved" -- but they do it to keep their contracts and to wrap them up. I believe if this is kept up it will be their demise in the industry. The MCs feel that their bread is buttered by the board; it's paid for by the assn. members--why can't they be loyal to them and then the boards might straighten up or get out and move on? EdR

LindaL

Posts:0

02/20/2006 10:43 AM
Nobody said that all HOAs are bad. You repeatedly take things completely out of context. What has been stated are facts and things I and other people are dealing with. Nobody said to get rid of MC's either. Please.... re-read the posts before responding. Thanks Linda

LindaL

Posts:0

02/20/2006 10:50 AM
You have to understand that NOBODY is holding the MC's liable or accountable. It's bad enough that nobody is holding the Board Members liable or accountable either... but at least they are homeowners but when you have a combination of ignorant board members due to the fact that they don't have to know a thing... coupled with MC's who aren't held liable or accountable... you have a very, very bad situation. Also, I question things about D&O Insurance and question why they have so much protection given what I have stated. AND that's where the money is... for the most part. Linda

LindaL

Posts:0

02/20/2006 11:53 AM
One last comment. We had a homeowner who previously lived in a HOA and it was very successfully managed (no MC). When she saw the problems with our HOA, she moved out. HOWEVER, I would rather have an MC than be self-managed for many reasons. That's why I'm all for any legislation that will straighten out this mess. Accountability is everything. When you have no accountability, you have a dictatorship. Linda

HankL
(Maryland)

Posts:47

02/20/2006 2:17 PM
Take it from me. A Board comprises of "average" hopmeowners can cause a LOT of trouble. It gets to a point that those who know better have to take whatever action is necessary. Been there. Done that.

LisaS
(Illinois)

Posts:339

02/20/2006 2:20 PM
LindaL...Nobody is holding the MC's or the Boards accountable? Are you not a member of your association? Are you not holding them accountable? Why is that 'more legislation' is going to save every homeowner from their MC and HOA??? California is one of the most heavily legislated, consumer friendly, hand holding states in the union. And it seems to have more than a lion's share of the problems involving these very issues already. Yes I have re-read the posts, thanks. I stand by what I said.

LindaL

Posts:0

02/20/2006 2:46 PM
You missed the entire point of what I was saying and again are taking everything out of context, not understanding what I have said. You can stand by anything; but you also misunderstand everything you read. Linda

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