"Special meetings" and homeowners rights to know

Started by KrystalA • 24 replies • 1815 views

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KrystalA (Iowa)
Posts: 60

Posted:

This last week our BOD president called a special meeting in which no visitors, homeowners, or property management people were allowed to attend. It was also stated in the email about the meeting that the minutes from this meeting would not be available to homeowners.

The topic of the meeting, in my opinion, was nothing of a "secret" nature but merely a difference of opinion on an ongoing issue - a web site.

A couple on the board don't want the site, and the rest were for it. The site went forward and was worked on with the property management company at the direction of the board. The board was then given a location to view the site and not a single board member gave any feedback for nearly a month (until the next BOD meeting)

At that meeting, all but one said they had been to the site, like the look and feel, and the content that was already available on it. Privacy is a big issue too and no homeowners (other than the BOD) names appear on the site, nor are they even on the hosting server.

The one lone holdout to see the site is the one who has been against it. Once he finally went to it, he contacted almost all board members seeking out any ammo to use to get the site down - even as far as lying and saying that the creater of the site was getting a kick back from the site from her real job.

*the site was done on her own time, the hosting is free, the domain is at her expense, and the association nor property management company pays a dime for this VOLUNTEER effort.

Contray to the boards belief, the company that she works for does not pay her or give her any kind of kick back (other than just free hosting) for this site. Of course these people on the board believe that a international news networks site creates sites for other people for only a few bucks (um, no they don't)

So, now we have an annual meeting next week, the site is down, and the question is - does the person who created the site have the right to explain that the site is down due to differing opinions on its usefulness, the volume of content (that repsects all privacy), and the belief that there is a financial gain when there isn't?

Suggestions???

hoatalk (California)
Posts: 599

Posted:

Not a direct answer to your question, but a caution:

If your volunteer is doing the site for free and your volunteer registered your domain name, then your volunteer 'owns' the website. Go to www.netsol.com, scroll to the bottom and click the whois link. Look up your domain name and you'll see your volunteer owns it.

Why should you care?
(1) At Community123.com, many of our new customers came to us after a volunteer left the community and took the site with them. After the volunteer left, no one had access to change the site and they could not renew the domain name. So, the domain name that the community had been promoting for over a year (and putting on their newsletter and other docs) was now lost because they could not renew it (the volunteer owned it and let it lapse). After it lapses you can try to buy it again, but will have little luck. There are companies whose only job is grabbing expiring domain names and re-selling them. If the prior user still wants the name, they have to pay a bounty to get it back. I spoke to one person that was asked to pay an $8,000 bounty.

If they don't pay, then anyone can put anything on the site after they buy the name. Now imagine the web address the community has been promoting ends up as a questionable advertising site, porn site or ???... It can and does happen. If your domain name can generate traffic then someone will take it and use it.

(2) The Board has no real say on what the site will be used for or what goes on it. If the volunteer decides to post things the board doesn't like, then what can the Board do about it? They really don't own the site and can't control it's contents. However, they will be promoting it to the members as the official site of the HOA.

Many communities go the free site volunteer route and most don't have the problems above, but they eventually will. The person that bought the name will eventually move away and stop paying the renewal fees. Transferring a domain name to another person or organization is a real pain of a process and most people would not bother after they move.

Boards really should consider getting a professional service to host their site and manage the domain name. Community123.com (the builder of HOATalk) does this for all our customers and I'm sure other services do as well.

HOATalk.com, A free service of Community123.com
Provider of Upscale Community Websites
CLICK HERE to get a FREE trial community website
*See legal notice below (end of page)

KrystalA (Iowa)
Posts: 60

Posted:

I appreciate your idea, and actually I looked into it before I even started looking into all this - see I am the one that is donig the site.

The real big reason other than an expenditure was that this board seriously does not want people knowing whats really going on out here. They don't want people to see minutes, they don't want anyone to know what is discussed in the regular meetings, they refuse to let homeowners who come for the meetings to stay for the whole meeting, and God forbid you asked for something...you are on the witch hunt list.

In fact that is where I am now because I refused to agree to a contract without seeing it, I voted against renewing a vendor agreement when the vendor who was VERY unprofessional out here this winter.

Since all of that, I have been accused of distributing minutes and board meeting info, and the last thing was accused of actually being paid by my employers to build our community website *again, this was done in my time, my dime. My boss did get a good laugh out of that one though.

Heck the property management director all but admitted there was a witch hunt and that I should just vote with the board. Mind you the PM knows that she is on the hot seat, that most people out here don't like her, and the only thing that keeps her here is the bullies on the board.

Is it safe to assume you are associated with community123? if so, please contact me off this thread...have some other questions about it

K

hoatalk (California)
Posts: 599

Posted:

Yes, HOATalk is run/owned by Community123.com as a service to the community and a demonstration of our technology. We'll email you to answer your questions. Thank you.

HOATalk.com, A free service of Community123.com
Provider of Upscale Community Websites
CLICK HERE to get a FREE trial community website
*See legal notice below (end of page)

hoatalk (California)
Posts: 599

Posted:

PS - If your board doesn't want communication with the members, then they will not want a website, whether free from a generous volunteer such as yourself or from a paid service like ours. It sounds like you have an uphill battle on your hands.

HOATalk.com, A free service of Community123.com
Provider of Upscale Community Websites
CLICK HERE to get a FREE trial community website
*See legal notice below (end of page)

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

KrystalA,

After reading your first post, I just wonered why the board didn't just vote and let the majority rule just as they would with a landscaping or maintenance contract.

After reading your second post, I have a better idea of what's going on here. If you and the board (that's the current board and future boards) don't see eye to eye on this website, they are wise not to follow through with it. They would be giving you the ability to post whatever you want without their permission. It's apparent to me that there's not a high level of trust between you and the BOD. We've had discussions with other people who created their own "community websites" against the wishes of their HOAs and have created a great deal of conflict.

The BOD must have complete control of what is and is not posted in the name of the association.

Even though I am the creator, webmaster, and "domain owner" of our website, as well as being a board member, HOATalk makes some very valid points concerning this arrangement. I believe I have the personal integrity to post only what is appropriate and to either continue to post under the direction of the BOD or turn over control (and the domain name) if a time comes when I feel I cannot continue to maintaine the site as directed by the board.

Ron
SC

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By hoatalk on 05/04/2007 4:06 AM

If your volunteer is doing the site for free and your volunteer registered your domain name, then your volunteer 'owns' the website. Go to www.netsol.com, scroll to the bottom and click the whois link. Look up your domain name and you'll see your volunteer owns it.

hoatalk, I forget the exact term, but it's possible to "mask" the actual owner of the domain name for a small fee (I believe we are paying $10.00 per year). That's what I did, you won't see my name as thye registered owner of our site. The primary reason for doing this is to avoid unwanted e-mail.

Ron
SC

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

BTW: I would have registered the domain name to the HOA but they only take credit cards for payment and our association doesn't have one.

Ron
SC

KrystalA (Iowa)
Posts: 60

Posted:

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter and for about 8 months things were fine. Our president is gone for 5 months of the year, so we never really meet. Once he got back, thats when things really changed.

three weeks ago, all but the president said they liked the site and the info on it and that the privacy part was on place. After the president looked at it (and he has been against it since day 1) he convinced two of the members that I was making money off of it from my employers (NOT) and that I was going above and beyond what I origianlly proposed (NOPE)

We did take a vote and it was 3 to 3 and tabled to the next meeting. The three that voted against it are a older and two are retired and don't quite get what the net is about.

The two that voted with me both told me afterwards they appreciate whet I have done and trust what I am doing.

We have our annual meeting soon and I will decided then if its worth it. (assuming they don't cancel again cos they are scared of the homeowners)

You know what they say about no good deed.

Thanks!!

K

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

If you bring it up at the annual membership meeting without it being put on the agenda by the board, you'll really cement the distrust between you and them. Instead, why don't you get people who agree with your position to contact the board members and ask them to approve the creation of the website.

Ron
SC

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KrystalA on 05/05/2007 1:03 PM
............ The three that voted against it are a older and two are retired and don't quite get what the net is about.

So now you're blaming your problems on "older" and "retired" people?

Much of the work in HOAs is done by "older" and "retired" people because they have the time and wisdom to do so. I wouldn't count them out because they are older than you. I am "older" and "retired" and I created our association's website. I'm also the VP.

With luck, one day you too may become "older" and "retired". Think about it.

Ron
SC

KrystalA (Iowa)
Posts: 60

Posted:

Actually its been on the agenda since we decided the date of the meeting a couple months back.

Um, these two in particular are not net savy at all and never did I say "all older people" Heck I have a relative nearing 85 and loves the net and does a ton on it.

JM2 (Oregon)
Posts: 439

Posted:

Hi Krystal:

You don't mention what state you are in, and if your state has an open meeting/sunshine law that applies to HOA's. If so, then there should be some very limited topics that they can talk about in executive session, and normally there would be no voting allowed in executive session, just discussion and possibly negotiation with a contractor.

In many (most? all?) states, the minutes should be available to owners, at least once they are approved at the subsequent board meeting.

J. Patrick Moore, CMCA

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KrystalA on 05/05/2007 10:01 PM
..........
Um, these two in particular are not net savy at all and never did I say "all older people" Heck I have a relative nearing 85 and loves the net and does a ton on it.

Why not sit down with them and a laptop and show them some of the better HOA sites and how something simmilar would benefit your association?

Ron
SC

DaleH (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Greetings,

I am in the same boat! I also started a forum based website. Over months of watching my Home Owners Association Board member doing things to hinder the flow of information to its members, I decided something needs to be done. I even brought this up in a board meeting and was shot down or ignored. I own the domain, and I built the website. The first thing asked "Is he making money on this?" Well since my corporation is a profit corporation, and it owns the domain, I could, but I choose not to. My site was all free. I paid for everything. I also placed several disclaimers that my site stating it was not associated with the HOA board.

Now.. I'm getting threats like "we are going to take care of him and his site". I've even offered to sit down and show what the site can do. But all I have been getting is negative feedback and threats. I've got a survey on my site that asks if people would be interested in my site. I have a overwhelming response of YES.

My question is.... why? Why so negative... Some answers is these HOA boards in general feel that websites are a threat to "their power". Their "little world" just got a whole lot bigger and maybe more people will not like what they are doing with members dues.

I attended my HOA last board meeting. Only 40 or so members were in attendance out of 780. And it always the same 40. Well if 780 people knew what is going on it forces the board to do things they might not like. And if they screw up, more people will know and the odds of them getting voted out go up greatly.

This is my opinion, I may be wrong.........

DH

KrystalA (Iowa)
Posts: 60

Posted:

Thanks for sharing your situation. Funny how you try to do the right things, and in the interest of the homeowners only be made out to be the devil or something.

I have thought about reposting the site to a location for people here to view and see if they see anything "off" about it. You know an unbiased opinion.

I really wish we could go the way of community123 but I know that they would never go for that. They want to keep the same property management person and the property management company wants the same board for job security.

The stories I could tell - even ones before thinking of going on the board.

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

Krystal and Dale,

Can you imagine the confusion and chaos that's caused when an individual posts an unauthorized, unofficial website that appears to be an official website for an HOA? Even with disclaimers on every page, the average viewer will think "fieldstoncrest.org" is an official information for Fieldstone Crest. And when the information on your site is in conflict with actual policy, it can cause a lot of trouble for members and the association.

There were posts a while back on the same subject and the poster posted his site's URL. He posted speed limits, pool hours and rules, etc. Even with his disclaimer, the average viewer would read the pool hours and show up expecting the pool to be open. And then the same person would likely call the HOA and complain that the pool was closed and the website said it would be open.

It's a free country and you can legally post anything you want on the Internet and if you claim the domain name and your association's name is not copyrighted, you can legally create a website and post anything you want. True or false. Is this good for your association and community? -- No, it is not. It is divisive.

Are you trying to help? Work with the board, even run for a board position. If you're on the board and want a website and the vote is three to two against you, well, that's how a democracy works. Be graceful in your loss and drop the subject for now. Same if you're not on the board. If they vote against a website, drop it, bring it up later. If you believe the majority of members wand an association website, ask them to contact the board members and let them know how they feel. That’s about the only way they will know.

As for boards hiding information from members, how do you know this? Did you get the information they are hiding? If so, why can’t other members who care get it the same way ?

Ron
SC

DaleH (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Ron,

I strongly disagree with you. HOA Boards seem to do little when it comes to providing information to the members they are supposed to serve. Sometimes is it designed to be very difficult to obtain information. The HOA I'm a member of has had a troubled past. Corruption, and nasty attacks have occurred. My website is not an attack nor will be an attack against the board. The members run the site and can voice their opinion. Now everyone and not a select few has information to make decisions when it is time to vote. But the information on the board is designed to allow members in this 780+ member community to exchange ideas and information. And sometimes not even pertaining to our community. There is always the chance that someone outside the community, or within can start something on the site. Even this site is open to that activity. But that's why we, and this site, have a set of posted rules and regulations. In reading your response you believe in the system. I do to. But the system can be one sided and can hurt the community as a whole without recourse. It is very easy for HOA Boards to have their own agenda and totally ignore issues placed in front of them from members. I have witnessed it in my community. It has been told to me from neighbors who have been in my community much longer than I that the board members names change but the acts do not. And yes I do plan run for a board spot. But to suggest that I'm doing more harm than good is not the response I'm getting from the members of my community when they log on and use my site.

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

Dale, I think you’re painting all HOA Boards with a wide brush. Certainly not all boards are like you describe, I doubt that the majority are. It's easy when you are not a board member to criticize but once you are a member you will see what goes on. Our president made a comment the other night that "everyone in the neighborhood should have to serve on the board just to see what it's like".

I don't think boards have "their own agenda", there are things they must do to allow the community to continue to operate. When you have a large, diverse group of people in the membership, there's bound to be some who feel their needs are not being represented. An example: Families with children may want a playground or basketball court. Families without children may not want to spend the money on something they won't use. Families with homes adjacent to the proposed playground don't want the noise and traffic it would generate. Now there's going to be some unhappy people here regardless of which way this is decided. Multiply this by ten or twenty issues and you see what the board is faced with.

Some members want strict enforcement of the covenants, others want to "just let people live" (translation - park their boat in the driveway, put out their garbage and trash whenever they please, build a fence or paint their house without approval, etc.). You cannot please both groups, someone will be unhappy.

If you start a "blog" in your own name and invite association members to join, that's fine. I still believe that if you create a website that appears to be an official website for your association without the approval of the board, you are doing more harm than good. And if you do end up being elected to the board it likely to be a very contentious term of office.

What would happen if two or three members of your association each created websites in your association name? Or the board creates their own, not yours?

Living in any group is a compromise at times and we don't always get our own way. We need to step back for the good of the community. I think you should do that until you are on the BOD, then you can push it.

Ron
SC

DaleH (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Ron,

I hope you are right about HOAs in other States. Not what I have seen in Florida!
I've read numerous problems in Florida.Here you have BODs going after their members. For what? I still have no answer. Examples...

The West Chase BOD in Tampa is suiting a Catholic Priest for having a cross in his front yard. The same Board is placing huge fines on members for having the yellow ribbon on a tree in their yard.

Police Officers and State Troppers in one community close to Tampa had to sue the BOD because the BOD thought Police Cars were commercial vehicles and the BOD were placing liens and outrageous fees on the Officer's properties. The State's Attorney General had to step in and tell the Board to stop! I was one of the Officers and it cost me dearly! I don't know about you but most people would welcome a police car in their neighborhood! Some HOA BOD don't think like that! And it still happens!

So you see.... Some HOAs do have their own agendas! They interpret rules to suit their needs or create outrageous rules to hide behind. And the members always are affected. Every Board member I have spoken too ( and there have been a lot) always throws the same things up in your face about boats, trailers, campers, etc... But that isn't always the case. Just a crutch for them to fall back on.

But it looks like a website does help some. It levels the playing field.

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Dale:

Obviously the media loves a controversy, so all you are going to hear about in the media is what is wrong with HOA's and what they are doing to persecute their members. I am sorry that happened to you, unfortunately you get some people with the common sense of an ant running an association and better judgement does not always prevail.

I know our association is not like that, we listen to our people and try to do what is right. Ron is right, you won't please everyone, some want strict enforcement, others don't. You have to balance that.

To the issue at hand, websites. I would be careful with third party websites when dealing with HOA's. The board should have strict control on the content. As someone said what would prevent someone from publishing false info either on purpose or inadvertently that could damage the HOA?

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

Dale, if you do find yourself serving on your HOA's BOD you will soon understand the difficulties of insuring compliance with the CC&Rs. If a police car is OK, why not a taxi cab? Or an exterminator's truck with a large plastic dead bug on the roof? Why can't the police car be parked in the garage?

If a cross is OK, how about a swastika? Did the priest seek permission first or did he just place it in the yard? How big is it?

If you'll take the time to visit neighborhoods in your area without HOAs or effective enforcement of covenant's you'll see that they quickly fall into disrepair. Take a look here:

http://ifhoa.awardspace.com/gallery2.htm

Sometimes, it can be a pain to follow the CC&Rs, but remember, they were in place when you purchased your property, and by purchasing the property, you agreed to abide by them.

Ron
SC

DaleH (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

>Dale, if you do find yourself serving on your HOA's BOD you will soon understand >the difficulties of insuring compliance with the CC&Rs. If a police car is OK, why >not a taxi cab? Or an exterminator's truck with a large plastic dead bug on the >roof? Why can't the police car be parked in the garage?

Police cars are classified as Emergency Vehicles in Florida. NOT COMMERCIAL! HOAs try to classify them wrong all the time!

> If a cross is OK, how about a swastika? Did the priest seek permission first or >did he just place it in the yard? How big is it?

There's that crutch thing again. That's the first thing BOD bring up. I believe in the West Chase thing NONE of the neighbors near the priest's home had a problem with the cross. But a person on the other side of the community who never goes by the house started something. I do believe nothing happened, and the Priest was able to keep the cross. I know the news channel covered it heavily and the Board was flooded with complaints from with and outside the community so they dropped it. This was an example of personal agendas while being on a Board. It was a board member who started it.

BTW the cross was a small (approx 6 inches) on in the front door. Not in plain view of the street. Now tell me that is not going after someone.

Now I have lived in a NON-HOA community (I want to go back!). But here is none with reasonable driving distance of my current job. There was no problems! No complaints! In fact we had a guy that flew the Nazi Flag (I think it was the Nazi Naval flag)! He was a nice guy. It was the joke of the neighborhood! No one started law suits, everyone had nice lawns, NO BOATS! When you add the "big brother HOA" in the mix, sometimes everything get screwed up. But I will say if the HOA is run with empathy, and wisdom, it can be a wonderful place to live. People do have their own agendas. And the wrong person in the right place will ruin the whole thing. That's probably the explanation in the problems I see.

DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DaleH on 05/08/2007 10:12 AM
>
> If a cross is OK, how about a swastika? Did the priest seek permission first or >did he just place it in the yard? How big is it?

There's that crutch thing again. That's the first thing BOD bring up. I believe in the West Chase thing NONE of the neighbors near the priest's home had a problem with the cross. But a person on the other side of the community who never goes by the house started something. I do believe nothing happened, and the Priest was able to keep the cross. I know the news channel covered it heavily and the Board was flooded with complaints from with and outside the community so they dropped it. This was an example of personal agendas while being on a Board. It was a board member who started it.

BTW the cross was a small (approx 6 inches) on in the front door. Not in plain view of the street. Now tell me that is not going after someone.

Crutch huh. I invite you to do a Google search on 'Boise Ten Commandments' and 'Boise Table Rock Cross' for an idea of what a problem religious symbols can be, whether on public or private land, whether easily visible or installed in an out-of-the-way location. If the news channels made a big deal out of it, I wouldn't be surprised if the community has popped up on Rev. Phelps' radar.

This sounds like one of those situations where the Board is going to be raked across the coals no matter where they do.

KrystalA (Iowa)
Posts: 60

Posted:

Hey Ron,

Thanks again for sharing your view points on this and the other posters concerns as well. It always helps to see other view points and be able to find a common balance that will hopefully make most people content.

We have an annual meeting tonight and if the site comes up - great, if not thats okay too. I had all good intentions, wanted a place where homeowners could know whats going on instead of being left in the dark - especially after the board running scared from an annual meeting last year when a homeowner collected a great number of proxies and most of the board didnt show up.

HOA's can be a good thing, but like any position one gets voted into - there is room for personal agendas (see: presidential elections

) I have lived in mine for over a decade now and having seen what it was and where it is now and could be heading, I stepped up to be on the board and while tempting to resign and just give up, I am staying on - unless they remove me for speaking my opinions and thoughts (always nicely too I might add)

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