MargaretJ2 (California)
Posts: 10
Posts: 10
Posted:
Has any one had experience with the FHA ruling that they were discriminating against children playing?
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children playing
Started by MargaretJ2 • 21 replies • 5861 views
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BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
can you give us a bit more background? what type of HOA do you have, what type of property are we talking about, what is the practice ongoing that is the source of whining?
FYI, while age is sometimes a protected status under the law, I do not believe youth is.
FYI, while age is sometimes a protected status under the law, I do not believe youth is.
MargaretJ2 (California)
Posts: 10
Posts: 10
Posted:
We are a small complex of town houses with property management and five board members. The problem is with youths kicking footballs into garage doors, parked cars etc. Our rules say that the common areas are not playgrounds. A homeowner complained and now the FHA is saying we are discriminating against children playing.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
I think the issue is that the common areas are for the enjoyment of the members, their families, guests and/or tenants. To tell a member that has children that they can't use the common area while at the same time telling members without children that they can use the common area, the Association is not treating everyone the same (i.e. discriminating).
Here is what davis-striling site says about swimming pools (which I know isn't exactly the same as open land but it is still considered a common area equally owned by all members).
Here, from the same site, is Dept. of Fair Employment & Housing demand letter about discriminating against children.
From the Fair Housing in California:
Families with Children. A Manual for Housing Providers, Tenants and Advocates[comment added]
Additionally, an owner or housing manager may not harass or interfere with an individual by withholding services or privileges that are granted to everyone else, when such action is based on the individual’s membership in a “protected
class.” Such privileges might include use of the laundry room, pool, or other facilities [ i.e. common areas], the provision of parking spaces, or prompt repairs of the premises.
Perhaps if the individuals are damaging property, you should let the property owners settle the issue with the parents and/or involve the police rather than pass rules/regs that causes legal issues for the Association.
Here is what davis-striling site says about swimming pools (which I know isn't exactly the same as open land but it is still considered a common area equally owned by all members).
Here, from the same site, is Dept. of Fair Employment & Housing demand letter about discriminating against children.
From the Fair Housing in California:
Families with Children. A Manual for Housing Providers, Tenants and Advocates[comment added]
Additionally, an owner or housing manager may not harass or interfere with an individual by withholding services or privileges that are granted to everyone else, when such action is based on the individual’s membership in a “protected
class.” Such privileges might include use of the laundry room, pool, or other facilities [ i.e. common areas], the provision of parking spaces, or prompt repairs of the premises.
Perhaps if the individuals are damaging property, you should let the property owners settle the issue with the parents and/or involve the police rather than pass rules/regs that causes legal issues for the Association.
MargaretJ2 (California)
Posts: 10
Posts: 10
Posted:
We have no areas in the complex for adults or guests other than the pool. we do have a play area for children up the age of about 10yrs. Is it o.k. for children to play in fire lanes which are considered common areas.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
The trick when writing rules is to make them apply to everyone equally. i.e.
There will be no bicycle riding in the common areas. (applies to everyone.)
Children may not ride bicycles in the common areas. (big no no)
There will be no bicycle riding in the common areas. (applies to everyone.)
Children may not ride bicycles in the common areas. (big no no)
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MargaretJ2 on 08/29/2012 11:15 PM
Is it o.k. for children to play in fire lanes which are considered common areas.
Is it o.k. for children to play in fire lanes which are considered common areas.
This is a parenting question and not an Association issue.
If your asking if it's safe (vs ok) to play in the fire lanes (street), I would say that it depends on the traffic.
If your asking if it's safer to play in the designated play area than in the street, I would say yes.
It's the parents decision on where the children actually play.
If the play causes damage, then the owner of the property damaged can go after the parents.
Again, a parenting issue not an Association issue.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2012 1:48 AM
Posted By MargaretJ2 on 08/29/2012 11:15 PM
Is it o.k. for children to play in fire lanes which are considered common areas.
Is it o.k. for children to play in fire lanes which are considered common areas.
This is a parenting question and not an Association issue.
If your asking if it's safe (vs ok) to play in the fire lanes (street), I would say that it depends on the traffic.
If your asking if it's safer to play in the designated play area than in the street, I would say yes.
It's the parents decision on where the children actually play.
If the play causes damage, then the owner of the property damaged can go after the parents.
Again, a parenting issue not an Association issue.
I agree.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Doing some more research, I discoverd that Davis-Stirling.com has a whole page dedicated to Discrimination.
Within that page is a link to this page about skateboarding and bicycles. On that page it specifies [emphasis added]:
Associations may not prohibit children from playing, skateboarding, or riding bikes, scooters in driveways or other areas. Any rule that singles out children may be considered discriminatory.
It goes on to say:
A rule that prohibits everyone (of all ages) from roller skating or rollerblading in the complex has a better chance of surviving scrutiny--but not necessarily. In a 2003 case entitled Housing Rights Center v. Rivera Town Homes #CV 02-5163PA (C.D. Cal. Feb. 2003) seven families sued their condominium association alleging discriminated on the basis of familial status because the association prohibited children from playing in the common areas. The Federal Court ordered the association to pay $130,000 in damages and to repeal its rules against children. In addition, the association agreed to a two-year anti-discrimination training program for its staff, management company and board members.
Here are some links to sites that discuss that case:
National Fair Housing Advocate Online
Do Not Discriminate Against Children, Period by KENNETH H. DILLINGHAM, JR., ESQ.
What individuals believe to be right or wrong isn't always the same as what is legal or illegal. Associations must do what is legal and the Board of Directors has a duty when adopting rules/guidelines to comply with the law.
Within that page is a link to this page about skateboarding and bicycles. On that page it specifies [emphasis added]:
Associations may not prohibit children from playing, skateboarding, or riding bikes, scooters in driveways or other areas. Any rule that singles out children may be considered discriminatory.
It goes on to say:
A rule that prohibits everyone (of all ages) from roller skating or rollerblading in the complex has a better chance of surviving scrutiny--but not necessarily. In a 2003 case entitled Housing Rights Center v. Rivera Town Homes #CV 02-5163PA (C.D. Cal. Feb. 2003) seven families sued their condominium association alleging discriminated on the basis of familial status because the association prohibited children from playing in the common areas. The Federal Court ordered the association to pay $130,000 in damages and to repeal its rules against children. In addition, the association agreed to a two-year anti-discrimination training program for its staff, management company and board members.
Here are some links to sites that discuss that case:
National Fair Housing Advocate Online
Do Not Discriminate Against Children, Period by KENNETH H. DILLINGHAM, JR., ESQ.
What individuals believe to be right or wrong isn't always the same as what is legal or illegal. Associations must do what is legal and the Board of Directors has a duty when adopting rules/guidelines to comply with the law.
CynthiaL3 (Florida)
Posts: 20
Posts: 20
Posted:
TimB4,
Thanks for all the information on discrimination and children, and for siteing the Housing Rights Center court case. This is great information for me, if I ever need to do further research on this topic.
This has been an on-going problem in my condo complex. Meaning, several board members in their demeanor, tone and treatment towards the few children we have living here. So far, nothing that raises to the level of a law suit, but, nonetheless, borderline abusive behavior towards several children.
Just in case this situation where I live, does raise to the level of legal concern, by an attempt to discriminate against any children, I'm so pleased to say, I'm now armed with information I can further research and articulate at any board meeting. Thanks again to TimB4.
Thanks for all the information on discrimination and children, and for siteing the Housing Rights Center court case. This is great information for me, if I ever need to do further research on this topic.
This has been an on-going problem in my condo complex. Meaning, several board members in their demeanor, tone and treatment towards the few children we have living here. So far, nothing that raises to the level of a law suit, but, nonetheless, borderline abusive behavior towards several children.
Just in case this situation where I live, does raise to the level of legal concern, by an attempt to discriminate against any children, I'm so pleased to say, I'm now armed with information I can further research and articulate at any board meeting. Thanks again to TimB4.
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posts: 409
Posted:
Our Association has a Covenants Rule titled "Noxious Activities". It basically says that any activity that creates an "unreasonable annoyance or nuisance" to neighboring property owners is prohibited. It applies to private properties , common areas, and other Association owned properties. It also applies to everybody, including children. I would think any mention of "children" would be risky business. The only requirement is that the complainant must sign a written complaint and appear at the hearing, unlike other complaints that can be anonymous. Overall, it works very well. In the 16 years that I was Chairman of our Covenants Committee we only had 6 appeals, none of which were granted, so the rile was not abused.
Paul T
Paul T
MargaretJ2 (California)
Posts: 10
Posts: 10
Posted:
Thank you Paul, in the 20yrs of this development this is the first complaint, sadly the owner sent it to the FHA.
PaulT6 (California)
Posts: 409
Posts: 409
Posted:
Margaret,
Right, there is "responsible" playing and "irresponsible" playing. Since children don't generally govern themselves it is the parent's responsibility. Unfortunately, many parents just want the kids out of the house and become incensed if their kids behavior is criticized. For many years we had an in house Attorney on our Staff who specialized in HOA matters. Our "conflict resolution" record was pretty good. It seems, however, that some people's goals are to see how big a settlement they can get. End of rant.
Paul T
Right, there is "responsible" playing and "irresponsible" playing. Since children don't generally govern themselves it is the parent's responsibility. Unfortunately, many parents just want the kids out of the house and become incensed if their kids behavior is criticized. For many years we had an in house Attorney on our Staff who specialized in HOA matters. Our "conflict resolution" record was pretty good. It seems, however, that some people's goals are to see how big a settlement they can get. End of rant.
Paul T
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MargaretJ2 on 08/29/2012 7:53 PM
Has any one had experience with the FHA ruling that they were discriminating against children playing?
Has any one had experience with the FHA ruling that they were discriminating against children playing?
Did FHA order any sort of remedy? It seems to me that a family with children chose to move into a complex that has no play area for children. Your condo complex is not a place of public accomodation, such as an apartment would be. I do not see how the condo association could be required to provide a playground. Is the complaining family an owner or a renter?
MargaretJ2 (California)
Posts: 10
Posts: 10
Posted:
No, no remedy was offered just change your rules now! The complainant is an owner. We do have a play area with slides etc., but boys want to play football.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MargaretJ2 on 08/30/2012 12:45 PM
No, no remedy was offered just change your rules now! The complainant is an owner. We do have a play area with slides etc., but boys want to play football.
No, no remedy was offered just change your rules now! The complainant is an owner. We do have a play area with slides etc., but boys want to play football.
New Rule: No one of any age is permitted to play football in the common areas.
Gee, that was easy!
MargaretJ2 (California)
Posts: 10
Posts: 10
Posted:
Thanks a lot Larry!!
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
I'd thought that your rule already was about kids not playing football, since you didn't surround your actual rule with quotes. But if your actual rule is "The common areas are not playgrounds," you are discriminating against children as "playground" implies youngsters.
So, sure, some version of Larry's wording should work! If you want to cover yourselves better, think about: "No one may play football or similar sports, including but not limited to baseball and soccer in the common areas."
So, sure, some version of Larry's wording should work! If you want to cover yourselves better, think about: "No one may play football or similar sports, including but not limited to baseball and soccer in the common areas."
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Carol
Back that one up. To me a "playground" is De Wallen in Amsterdam, not some kids on the street throwing a football around even when one of the throws goes wrong.
I guess it all depends on your definition of a "playground".......LOL
Back that one up. To me a "playground" is De Wallen in Amsterdam, not some kids on the street throwing a football around even when one of the throws goes wrong.
I guess it all depends on your definition of a "playground".......LOL
JM10 (California)
Posts: 503
Posts: 503
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MargaretJ2 on 08/29/2012 11:15 PM
We have no areas in the complex for adults or guests other than the pool. we do have a play area for children up the age of about 10yrs. Is it o.k. for children to play in fire lanes which are considered common areas.
We have no areas in the complex for adults or guests other than the pool. we do have a play area for children up the age of about 10yrs. Is it o.k. for children to play in fire lanes which are considered common areas.
There is actually a legal definition for playground and playgrounds have to meet state standards (which also align with federal standards in California). There is a difference between a play area and a playground.
This might be the source of your problem, but I'm not sure what the FHA has to say and that would be informative. When you write, just change your rules, you do not specify what the rule is.
You say that it is a small complex and there has been damage to the garages. I hope that this means that the parents were required to pay for the damage.
Football and other sports like baseball should not be permitted in common areas that do not meet the requirements for that activity and in which the sports will predictably cause damage. You've already had damage as a result of the activity.
Fire lanes should be kept clear and I'm with Larry. Just enforce this rule for everyone.
JM10 (California)
Posts: 503
Posts: 503
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MargaretJ2 on 08/29/2012 11:15 PM
We have no areas in the complex for adults or guests other than the pool. we do have a play area for children up the age of about 10yrs. Is it o.k. for children to play in fire lanes which are considered common areas.
We have no areas in the complex for adults or guests other than the pool. we do have a play area for children up the age of about 10yrs. Is it o.k. for children to play in fire lanes which are considered common areas.
There is actually a legal definition for playground and playgrounds have to meet state standards (which also align with federal standards in California). There is a difference between a play area and a playground.
This might be the source of your problem, but I'm not sure what the FHA has to say and that would be informative. When you write, just change your rules, you do not specify what the rule is.
You say that it is a small complex and there has been damage to the garages. I hope that this means that the parents were required to pay for the damage.
Football and other sports like baseball should not be permitted in common areas that do not meet the requirements for that activity and in which the sports will predictably cause damage. You've already had damage as a result of the activity.
Fire lanes should be kept clear and I'm with Larry. Just enforce this rule for everyone.
MargaretJ2 (California)
Posts: 10
Posts: 10
Posted:
Thank you all for your input.
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