BonnieG1
(Nebraska)
Posts:350
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| 02/04/2012 9:54 AM |
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There was a forum on here earlier about posting a list of owners who have not paid.
My question is
Would there be a problem with posting a list of people who have paid each month.
Our CCO (we have an owner we have nicknamed Chief Complaining Officer) thinks this list should be given each month with the financial report.
another but related question do you think it is a good idea to post the budget before the annual meeting. Our CCO wants to see it, but the President does not want to post it before the meeting.
Our CCO has some good points, but lacks tact when mentioning anything. |
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BradP
(Kansas)
Posts:2491
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| 02/04/2012 11:03 AM |
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| I don't see any value in posting individual names for anything....i just think that is a road to stay off of. |
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MelissaP1
(Alabama)
Posts:2207
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| 02/04/2012 11:24 AM |
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I agree with Brad on this one. You can post Lot#'s but not people's names...Our collections reports were only given to Board members but in front of everyone at the OPEN meeting. However, we only refer to the situation in general terms or by Lot #'s. That way the membership knew we were taking actions against that lot and weren't being idle about it. It helped we had a policy of no liens until 6 months behind so when the time came to even address the legal lien issue sufficient notification had been addressed.
The budget should NOT be released prior to the OPEN meeting. That is what OPEN meeting means...Asking for information outside of the meeting unless previously arranged, is out of line. Every member should have the same oportunity to the information and thus that is why HOA's have OPEN meetings. It is their choice to attend or be privy to this information when the time comes it is offered to them... Your President is right! (That statement doesn't happen very often LOL!) |
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Former HOA President |
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BonnieG1
(Nebraska)
Posts:350
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| 02/04/2012 11:35 AM |
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| Good to know our President is right about this. There have been many instances where we have to inform the President on how things should be. |
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BonnieG1
(Nebraska)
Posts:350
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| 02/04/2012 11:36 AM |
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Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/04/2012 11:24 AM
I agree with Brad on this one. You can post Lot#'s but not people's names...Our collections reports were only given to Board members but in front of everyone at the OPEN meeting. However, we only refer to the situation in general terms or by Lot #'s. That way the membership knew we were taking actions against that lot and weren't being idle about it. It helped we had a policy of no liens until 6 months behind so when the time came to even address the legal lien issue sufficient notification had been addressed.
The budget should NOT be released prior to the OPEN meeting. That is what OPEN meeting means...Asking for information outside of the meeting unless previously arranged, is out of line. Every member should have the same oportunity to the information and thus that is why HOA's have OPEN meetings. It is their choice to attend or be privy to this information when the time comes it is offered to them... Your President is right! (That statement doesn't happen very often LOL!)
I wasn't asking about posting members who have not paid, but who have paid. Since some members pay ahead it would be difficult for the general population to determine who has not paid from the list of owners who have paid. |
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MelissaP1
(Alabama)
Posts:2207
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| 02/04/2012 11:49 AM |
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| Not a good thing either way...Those who paid don't need reminded or used as an example. Those who haven't paid have individual reasons and should be addressed as such. There's no benefit from posting this information. It's just another good gossip report in my opinion... |
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Former HOA President |
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JohnC46
(South Carolina)
Posts:621
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| 02/04/2012 12:16 PM |
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Bonnie
I think your CCO (I like and will use that expression myself) is looking for a round about way of getting a list of people owing dues.
Some BOD's have been accused of backing down on collection efforts on friends of the BOD. Some BOD's have members that are behind.
I believe fellow homeowners have the right to know it all. I think the answer is to post Lot/Unit #'s (not names of owners) of those behind, how far behind, and action being taken.
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BonnieG1
(Nebraska)
Posts:350
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| 02/04/2012 1:34 PM |
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Posted By JohnC46 on 02/04/2012 12:16 PM
Bonnie
I think your CCO (I like and will use that expression myself) is looking for a round about way of getting a list of people owing dues.
Some BOD's have been accused of backing down on collection efforts on friends of the BOD. Some BOD's have members that are behind.
I believe fellow homeowners have the right to know it all. I think the answer is to post Lot/Unit #'s (not names of owners) of those behind, how far behind, and action being taken.
In our community, posting only the unit number would be the same as posting a name. We only have 43 units and we all know each other. It is like a family.
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BradP
(Kansas)
Posts:2491
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| 02/04/2012 2:04 PM |
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Bonnie:
I would stay away from posting lot numbers, names, etc. of those who HAVE paid and those who HAVE NOT paid...I would stick to numbers such as 35 out of 43 homes have paid, this is what we are doing for the 8 who haven't, etc.
As for the budget, I really don't see an issue with posting it before the meeting, it allows people an opportunity to digest the information and be prepared for the meeting. |
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BruceF1
(Connecticut)
Posts:1510
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| 02/04/2012 4:00 PM |
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Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/04/2012 11:24 AM
You can post Lot#'s but not people's names
Why not? What's the difference? People generally know who lives on each lot #. At least, in the community I live in, I know who lives on each lot. Post the lot # and I know the name. Might as well bite the bullet and post the name.
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KellyM3
(North Carolina)
Posts:450
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| 02/04/2012 4:25 PM |
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The list is designed, no matter what the CCO says, to shame non-payers. Get a name wrong on that list - given the purposeful intent of the public posting - and a lawsuit could follow. It's quite simple.
Besides, the list won't collect cash for you that you need. At least the CCO is thinking outside the box. Do you have good insurance on your board in case it makes a bad decision on this one? |
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BonnieG1
(Nebraska)
Posts:350
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| 02/04/2012 4:52 PM |
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Our CCO thinks they is no accounting for accounts receivable. Our documents state that the owners who have not paid are to be posted and our CCO brought this up to me. I tactfully told her that our documents were over 30 years old and laws have changed since then. There are new privacy laws and the federal or state law trumps our documents.
She is so concerned that someone may be ripping us of (We did have a problem in the past with a person who was keeping our books who was not an actual bookkeeper)
The only accounts receivable we have are our dues. We used this lady's son once for repairs. She was happy as a Lark for a while until we refused his bid on a job because we had received a lower bid. However our CCO has for years complained about almost everything and anything. |
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CarolR11
(California)
Posts:436
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| 02/04/2012 5:40 PM |
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I've stayed out of the post-names-of-delinquents fray in the past, but will now agree with Brad that posting names, lot #s or any other identifying info about those who have paid or those who have not just feels vindictive. Listing those who have paid, even in our fairly large HOA, could easily lead nosy neighbors into figuring out who the delinquents are.
I agree with Brad, then. There could be a list of "Unit A," how much is owed and what the board is doing to collect, and current status, e.g., foreclosure, bankruptcy, etc, then "Unit B," etc. Or some other method of listing. That way, owners can see exactly what the board is doing to collect.
Why not, Bonnie, place this item on your next open meeting agenda and the board can decide? But pay attention to Kelly's advice!
I also, with Brad, see no problem posting the proposed or draft budget, or having copies available, a few days before the meeting when the budget will be approved. That way, interested owners have time to think about and ask questions about certain budget items at the open meeting. This may add to the meeting duration, but it may help owners understand the answer to: "Why are our dues so high?" |
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SteveM9
(Massachusetts)
Posts:1529
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| 02/04/2012 6:45 PM |
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Here we go again...... LOL.
PS. I post lot numbers and if they paid or not. I've been doing it for years along with every financial document we have. Works for us. You never want members to be surprised that dues are not being paid. Financial transparency is key to running a successful HOA. I've even had members see the invoices and suggest ways or other companies to save money. |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:5202
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| 02/05/2012 10:28 AM |
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The Board's business is to let Members know WHAT they are doing to collect past due accounts. It is NOT to list them, but rather WHAT is being done about them. Your members need to know that the board is taking action and doing something. Hopefully, the board has a step-by=step policy in place that expains it all.
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MelissaP1
(Alabama)
Posts:2207
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| 02/05/2012 11:19 AM |
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| I Agree with you SusanW 110%. This is exactly how we handled our collections. We discussed them by lot #'s and what we were doing to collect the dues. It also may be a situation where we were going to have to research the ownership. We didn't always know who owned that property. It was open discussion but without specific names. It isn't our responsibility if someone wants to take the initiative to look up the owners at those Lot #'s. That was on your own dime and initiative. As long as we the board did NOT reveal such information. There has to be a line and that was ours. If you are so gung-ho to find this person(s) and you have no legal remedy to resolve the issue then we can't help you there. The board is responsible for taking the actions NOT an individual even if it is "shunning/shaming" them... |
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Former HOA President |
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BradP
(Kansas)
Posts:2491
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| 02/05/2012 1:04 PM |
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Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/05/2012 11:19 AM
I Agree with you SusanW 110%. This is exactly how we handled our collections. We discussed them by lot #'s and what we were doing to collect the dues. It also may be a situation where we were going to have to research the ownership. We didn't always know who owned that property. It was open discussion but without specific names. It isn't our responsibility if someone wants to take the initiative to look up the owners at those Lot #'s. That was on your own dime and initiative. As long as we the board did NOT reveal such information. There has to be a line and that was ours. If you are so gung-ho to find this person(s) and you have no legal remedy to resolve the issue then we can't help you there. The board is responsible for taking the actions NOT an individual even if it is "shunning/shaming" them...
Melissa
posting lot numbers is the same as posting names...it takes me 2 minutes to get on a computer, punch in the lot number and see who the owner is...you might as well post the names... |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:5202
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| 02/05/2012 1:41 PM |
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I believe the board should be even more discreet, ie. "We have five homes behind in dues 60 days. Here's what we are doing: . . . "
There is no obligation to reveal names or addresses. |
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CarolR11
(California)
Posts:436
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| 02/05/2012 2:25 PM |
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| I'm with you, Susan & Brad! No names, lot #s or other personal identifiers are needed. |
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BruceF1
(Connecticut)
Posts:1510
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| 02/05/2012 2:39 PM |
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Posted By BradP on 02/05/2012 1:04 PM Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/05/2012 11:19 AM
I Agree with you SusanW 110%. This is exactly how we handled our collections. We discussed them by lot #'s and what we were doing to collect the dues. It also may be a situation where we were going to have to research the ownership. We didn't always know who owned that property. It was open discussion but without specific names. It isn't our responsibility if someone wants to take the initiative to look up the owners at those Lot #'s. That was on your own dime and initiative. As long as we the board did NOT reveal such information. There has to be a line and that was ours. If you are so gung-ho to find this person(s) and you have no legal remedy to resolve the issue then we can't help you there. The board is responsible for taking the actions NOT an individual even if it is "shunning/shaming" them... Melissa posting lot numbers is the same as posting names...it takes me 2 minutes to get on a computer, punch in the lot number and see who the owner is...you might as well post the names...
Exactly what I said earlier. There's really no difference. In our small community, I don't even have to look it up. Give me a lot# and I know immediately which street and where it's located. Knowing that, I know who lives there. Anyone who believes it's somehow different is only fooling themselves.
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BradP
(Kansas)
Posts:2491
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| 02/05/2012 3:18 PM |
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in reality HOA boards want residents to be responsible and pay their dues. They want residents to honor their word of what they signed and bought and they want residents to abide by rules. If the board expects the residents to act like adults then I think it is a perfectly reasonable to expect a board to act like adults. Resorting to "shaming" whether it is through posting who paid and who didn't either through lot numbers, parcel descriptions, addresses or names is in reality just a childish tactic in my opinion. Lets follow the recourse that our documents allow, rely on the law and legal recourses and leave games for kids. I think Boards would get more respect if they did that.
Yes we do have an obligation to inform residents on what is owed, what is being done to collect, etc., but I also believe we have a duty to protect personal information of our residents. |
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JohnC46
(South Carolina)
Posts:621
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| 02/05/2012 5:20 PM |
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Posted By BradP on 02/05/2012 3:18 PM
in reality HOA boards want residents to be responsible and pay their dues. They want residents to honor their word of what they signed and bought and they want residents to abide by rules. If the board expects the residents to act like adults then I think it is a perfectly reasonable to expect a board to act like adults. Resorting to "shaming" whether it is through posting who paid and who didn't either through lot numbers, parcel descriptions, addresses or names is in reality just a childish tactic in my opinion. Lets follow the recourse that our documents allow, rely on the law and legal recourses and leave games for kids. I think Boards would get more respect if they did that.
Yes we do have an obligation to inform residents on what is owed, what is being done to collect, etc., but I also believe we have a duty to protect personal information of our residents.
Brad
While I might disagree that shaming will not work, let us take it a step further.
At a HOA/BOD Meeting after whatever is said about deliquent dues (no matter how vague/direct), a homeowner asks have you filed liens on any deliquent dues payers, and if so, whom were the liens filed on?
Is this not a question that should be directly answered?
In the nature of openness and we all share in this, I think it should be directly answered.
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TimB4
(Virginia)
Posts:3801
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| 02/05/2012 6:16 PM |
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John,
Other than members of the Board, I doubt this question would be asked by a non-board member. However, if asked, yes it should be answered directly providing that the lien has been filed and it's now public knowledge. If a lien hasn't been filed, I believe that the answer should be "we are working this through our attorney and once the lien has been finalized, I would be happy to provide you with that information."
Since I live in VA, VA law actually leaves the withholding of this information to the discretion of the Board.
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BradP
(Kansas)
Posts:2491
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| 02/06/2012 6:42 AM |
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Posted By JohnC46 on 02/05/2012 5:20 PM Posted By BradP on 02/05/2012 3:18 PM
in reality HOA boards want residents to be responsible and pay their dues. They want residents to honor their word of what they signed and bought and they want residents to abide by rules. If the board expects the residents to act like adults then I think it is a perfectly reasonable to expect a board to act like adults. Resorting to "shaming" whether it is through posting who paid and who didn't either through lot numbers, parcel descriptions, addresses or names is in reality just a childish tactic in my opinion. Lets follow the recourse that our documents allow, rely on the law and legal recourses and leave games for kids. I think Boards would get more respect if they did that.
Yes we do have an obligation to inform residents on what is owed, what is being done to collect, etc., but I also believe we have a duty to protect personal information of our residents. Brad While I might disagree that shaming will not work, let us take it a step further. At a HOA/BOD Meeting after whatever is said about deliquent dues (no matter how vague/direct), a homeowner asks have you filed liens on any deliquent dues payers, and if so, whom were the liens filed on? Is this not a question that should be directly answered? In the nature of openness and we all share in this, I think it should be directly answered.
John:
I would reply that liens have been filed on homes that fit the criteria and they are welcome to search the public database if they want to find out on whom. I really don't think it is the HOA's business to that info...
I don't disagree that shaming might/might not work, my argument against it is why? If you read a lot of the posts on here they mainly have to do with people and boards not getting along. So why go and add another 2 feet to the height of the wall already built between members and HOA's by resorting to shaming? I just think the tactic does more harm than good... |
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SteveM9
(Massachusetts)
Posts:1529
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| 02/06/2012 5:06 PM |
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Is this not a question that should be directly answered?
In the nature of openness and we all share in this, I think it should be directly answered.
Many board members think no question should receive a direct answer. They like to speak in vague generalizations, and beat around the bush. These are usually the HOA's with the most issues with members VS. boards because questions remain unanswered until members revolt.
Board members who think they should know specific things and general membership should not, is the real problem. It just creates new problems. We prefer to be transparent about everything. |
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BradP
(Kansas)
Posts:2491
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| 02/07/2012 6:43 AM |
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Posted By SteveM9 on 02/06/2012 5:06 PM
Is this not a question that should be directly answered?
In the nature of openness and we all share in this, I think it should be directly answered. Many board members think no question should receive a direct answer. They like to speak in vague generalizations, and beat around the bush. These are usually the HOA's with the most issues with members VS. boards because questions remain unanswered until members revolt. Board members who think they should know specific things and general membership should not, is the real problem. It just creates new problems. We prefer to be transparent about everything.
Steve:
I would agree with you except for one thing, anything that has to do with an individual homeowner in my opinion should not be made public. You should say 4 lots have had liens filed and turned over to a collection agent and 3 lots have been sent covenant violation letters and will be followed up on. you should not say Mr. Smith, Mr. Brown, Mr. Jones and Mr. Ed have had liens filed against them and Ms. Thomas, Mr. Allen and Ms. Brooks have had violations letters sent to them. You are in essence saying the same thing... |
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CarolR11
(California)
Posts:436
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| 02/07/2012 8:31 AM |
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| Write on, Brad! |
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HeleneN
(Connecticut)
Posts:22
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| 02/07/2012 9:47 AM |
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Bonnie
You have received numerous opinions on whether to identify delinquencies or not and so I'll add mine. There are many people out there facing real hardships and to further their adverse situation by identifying them serves no purpose. Yes, the board is running a business and they have a responsibility to assure the income of the association but let them be about the business of collecting late payments and filing liens, if necessary, with the utmost descretion. I would be appalled to walk into my local bank lobby and see a posting of delinquent mortagage holders.
Your other question regarding budgets: Here in Ct. once the board adopts a budget they must provide the Unit Oners with a summary and set a date to consider ratification. That notification must go out not less than (14) days nor more than (30) days before the meeting. Unless at that meeting a majority of ALL Unit Owners reject the budget, the budget is ratified. |
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MoM
(Massachusetts)
Posts:6
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| 02/07/2012 10:05 AM |
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| How would the posters here still feel about the do-not-name-names mantra if they were to discover that the most chronic deliquents in their associations were members of the BOD? And these directors are using their positions to shield themselves from the normal collection activity. |
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HeleneN
(Connecticut)
Posts:22
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| 02/07/2012 10:23 AM |
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Mo
If those "rascals" are using their position to shield and protect themselves from fines and collection procedures, then you have a bugger problem than whether to post or not! |
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