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FL: Procedure for HOA to sell foreclosed house after receipt of Certificate of Title

Started by TerryG176 replies • 15415 views

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TerryG1 (Florida)
Posts: 11
Posted:
Our HOA has a home that went for an online auction via our attorney. The HOA received the Cert. of Title. The BOD was contacted by residents in the HOA community, regarding taking offers on this house.
What is the procedure, according to FLORIDA law, for the BOD to get this house sold?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
Are you saying that the Association foreclosed on a home or that they purchased a home via an online auction?

If you foreclosed on the home, you must follow FL foreclosure laws.

If you purchased the home outright you should contact a realtor and go through the normal selling process as to do otherwise would probably be contrary to your Boards fiduciary responsibility.

CAUTION: If you purchased the property outright when you sell it, any profit would typically be considered taxable income. If you are incorporated as a nonprofit corporation, you should check with a CPA to see what other implications there may be.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I would take Tim's advice and go through a Realtor. The HOA does NOT want to own this property. It may find itself on the hook for many costs it doesn't know it undertook. The HOA had to pay the bid amount to get the home (I assume) which is the same amount the original owner owed. So the HOA basically paid it's own debt twice. It's also important to know how much the house is worth in a fair market. How much was owed on the home. What repair/maintenance costs are needed to get the property sellable. If the HOA may have to assume a mortgage on the property.

My suggestion is to find a BUYER's AGENT for the HOA and not just a Realtor. A Buyer's agent is a realtor but they work for the buyer. They split the profit (6%) with the other realtor. Even though the HOA is the seller a buyer's agent could help sort out things. Keep in mind that realtors can be alot like used car salesmen and are NOT created equal. You may want to shop around or have one you trust to assist.

There is still the right of redemption on this property which may hold things up. Here it is a year the original owner can buy back the home plus improvements. Other states it varies to no rights to 6 months. It's important to sort this out early so you know how long the HOA may have to hold on to this property and the costs associated with that.

I've done a HOA foreclosure. The home could be turned over to HUD (Housing and Urban Development) for them to foreclose on if the title isn't picked up. A HUD foreclosure may be the way to go so that it's open to anyone to purchase and not on the HOA's bill. However, that would take someone very versed in real estate laws to see if that truly is an option. It gets very complicated and don't want to lead you down a wrong path. However, you should be aware of such options if they exist.

Former HOA President
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I addressed this issue in another thread. However, the answer is no. The liens are most likely not valid anymore as these people are no longer members of the HOA. Why these liens show up on file could be many reasons. Most likely due to that person filing bankruptsy. It's best to ask an attorney on what to do about absolving or pursuing these old debts. Most likely nothing can be done due to them no longer being members and/or not having updated information on the people to pusue.

Former HOA President
JimD15 (Florida)
Posts: 21
Posted:
Terry, Forgive me, but is this a mobile home? The reason I'm asking is because my realtor has told me my home has a "deed". I do title work for a mobile home park here in Florida and mobile homes are issued certificates of titles the same as autos, trucks, certain RV's and some trailers. I can give you my opinion if indeed you are writing about a mobile home but not a home with a deed.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
RichardA is spamming the forum and has been reported to the Moderator.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It is but not through the methods you are posting. We do not advertise other businesses or unproven business practices. Read the posting rules.

Former HOA President
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
Procedure for HOA to sell foreclosed house after receipt of Certificate of Title


Sell the house to who? I assume it has a mortgage on it. So there are very few people who will buy a house, simply to get foreclosed on in 6 to 24 months by the previous owner's mortgage company. Your HOA would be better off renting the house, or simply securing it and waiting for the bank to foreclose.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
Richard,

You created an on-line auction house for note sellers.
I looked at your site. In the site you state very plainly that if you have a judgement lien then it should be considered an asset and should be sold.

I did some research and discovered:

As we know, there are several types of Liens.

A Judgement Lien can be done only after (in this case) the Association takes them to court and wins a judgement.Typically, as I understand it (and I could be wrong) after you win the judgement you have to go back to court and request permission to lien property to collect on that judgement.

This is not the type of lien an Association typically uses.

Per the contract (the CC&Rs) an Association has a continuing lien on the members property. This type of lien is known as a consensual lien (that is you entered into a contract, the CC&Rs, to allow the lien) and falls under the general lien category.

Therefore, as has been pointed out in many threads, an Association has the following options:

1) Formalize the lien by recording it with the county and foreclose.
2) Take the owner to court for a judgement (which just confirms that they owe the money)then take that judgement back to court for permission to lien their assets (salary, other property, cars, etc.).

Both options will cost the Association money. Option 1 typically costs less than option 2. Option 1 typically just stops the bleeding. However, if the debt is high enough and if the member actually has other assets and you know where they are, Option 2 may be a viable option.

PER YOUR SERVICE, if an Association goes through the expense of option 2 and is successful in getting a judgement lien you would like them to place that lien on your auction site. This way, the Association will at least collect some of the money owed.

In looking at your site, you had one property in IL that had a judgement for $1,398. With interest, that amount is now worth almost $3,000. The auction is set to continue for another 42 days. Current bid: $10 (of course if that isn't an actual auction and just a demo of one, it still illustrates my point).

Gee, the Association went through the legal expense of option 2 (possibly several thousands of dollars) and you're encouraging them to sell the note to someone else for $10.

SORRY, it doesn't pass the common sense test.

Why not just foreclose the property. Perhaps take possession of it (until the bank forecloses) and gain some rental income. That income has a better chance of paying off the expense to collect than your site.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
Basically, is the market value of the house larger than the underlying debt ?


I'm an investor myself, and finding a house that has been foreclosed and has equity is like finding a diamond ring on the sidewalk. Extremely rare. If it had equity, most people put it up for sale.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:

You created an on-line auction house for note sellers.


Richard, have you ever considered getting feedback for the design of your website and making changes based upon that feedback? It's simply terrible. Take your laptop and show it to a bunch of people and ask them to critique it or watch them click around
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Is Richard spamming us?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 04/11/2013 6:59 AM
Is Richard spamming us?

At the very least he is pressing on the boundaries of the posting rules.

He starts a thread about an "idea" for an Association to sell the judgement lien for delinquent accounts to investors (i.e. note selling).

He talks about the pros and doesn't acknowledge the cons (like the expense for an Association to actually obtain a judgement lien vs. foreclosing on the general lien they already hold).

To support his cause he links to a press release that says the same thing he said in the thread. What he doesn't say is that this press release was written by a company he owns that provides a service to do exactly what he is advocating Associations to use. He isn't directly advertising his company (which is why he is bordering on violating the posting rules vs. breaking them), as the press release is on a site that just does press releases, but within the press release is a link to his company.

So, if someone gives you a sales pitch on a great way to earn money and it just so happens that he can fulfill the promises of that pitch by using a company he owns, wouldn't that be considered SPAM?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardA14 on 04/11/2013 7:26 AM
TimB4, How many properties do you own that you pay assessments on ?

I own one.

Quote:
Posted By RichardA14 on 04/11/2013 7:26 AM
What is your solution to reduce delinquencies ?

I'm serving as treasurer for my Association and, in that position, I have used common sense and enforced a written policy equally on all members and in a timely manner.

Quote:
Posted By RichardA14 on 04/11/2013 7:26 AM
Have you spent any of your own money on creating a solution ?

No. I have spent something far more valuable, my time and energy away from my family.

By spending my time and energy, the Association I live in has gone from a 7% delinquency rate (of which the majority was 90 days or more delinquent) to, as of the first of this month, a 1% delinquency rate and that one percent is only 30 days delinquent in under two years.

Quote:
Posted By RichardA14 on 04/11/2013 7:26 AM
Or are you working for an HOA and getting paid for posting on here ?

Do I work for an HOA - Yes
Am I paid to work for an HOA - NO
How much time do I spend working for my HOA - approx 20 hrs a month as Treasurer
Am I being paid to post here - NO nor, to my knowledge, are any other posters other than the moderator.

Have you ever served on any of your Associations Boards?

Per your posting, you haven't approached your Boards with this idea. Why not?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
RICHARD,

After all of the postings you continue to violate the posting rules of this forum by listing website addresses to your company in an attempt to advertise it.

If you are unable to comply with the simple posting rules (there are only three of them), then one has to wonder what other rules or laws are you willing to openly defy.

In my opinion, it's a perfect example of why Assocaitions should not do business with you.

However, if, after they have gone through the expense of obtaining a judgment lien and the expense of knowing where the individual is and what assets they have so as to make the note more valuable in the eyes of investors, and they are still willing to sell the note for less than it's worth if they exercised the lien themselves, I urge them to seek out a company that demonstrates they can actually comply with rules and regulations.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
I'm sorry. I was unaware we were to be beta testers for your commercial enterprise.
ST2
Posts: 22
Posted:
I read Forums for fresh perspectives and novel solutions. I see no harm in a well-thought out, novel approach to actually making liens work for HOA's based upon the time-tested premise of generating money in a win-win scenario. I found the pros and cons of the discussion interesting and informative.

This appears to be a situation where a problem has been identified and one possible solution happens to cross over into self promotion. If this person were just posting links everywhere and not truly participating in the process, I would be offended. Borderline-yes. Obnoxious-no.

In my opinion, the greater error lies in restricting and censoring exchange of ideas, despite the self-promotional element. The market will eventually make the decision about the merits of the idea and big boy/girl members do have the ability to discern and tolerate this content or letting it die a natural death and focusing on more productive areas.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
ST, the harm comes when people who come here looking for solutions, buy into some harebrained scheme that makes (he hopes) one person money while costing others that buy into it, time or money. Just like the people who have brought us new and exciting ideas over the years such as you don't really have to pay federal income taxes or how to squat in a foreclosed home and take title of it. Very rarely is it the ones that hawk the ideas that pay the price, it's the people too naive to understand that it's all about selling the idea, not implementing it.

Besides say an HOA has a judicial lien for $3,000.00 why would I pay more than $3,000.00 for it? The only way I can make money on the JL is if I can buy it for less than face value.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Glen says:

Besides say an HOA has a judicial lien for $3,000.00 why would I pay more than $3,000.00 for it? The only way I can make money on the JL is if I can buy it for less than face value.

I believe the going rate for buying bad debt is about 10cents on the Dollar. Now paying Mario from Cleveland to collect it could get expensive thus the need to make 90cents on the Dollar.....LOL
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
ST

I agree I am a big boy and can make my own decisions but the the question about some of these post is they are passing from informational to spamming/business propositions. As such, they are not allowed on this site according to the rules we all agreed to......sound familiar......LOL

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Let me put this all in perspective for everybody. The reality is that no method used to collect money owed outside of a court ruling/involvement is lthat is legal. You can not get the lien, judgement, or foreclosure without it. These are the legal routes to pursue debts for anybody not just HOAs.

Collection agencies or any business that buys debts still have to use the legal system. Otherwise it is considered "Loan sharking" which is very illegal. Courts do not hold up cases of a debt agency charging extreme interest or charges to collect on debt. So does not make sense or much profit for a company considering only maybe 10% interest or less can be applied. The only possible profit involved in a debt.

So all this "research" you are supposedly doing is proven for naught. It violates the rules and convinces people of the urban legend of being able to collect against a unrecoverable debt. Let us hope common sense prevails or the sale of snake oil catches fire and burnsnitself out.

Former HOA President
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
This is a very bad advertising method for your business. It shows just how doing business with you would work. NOT listening to the client and in it all for yourself. I question one so intent in finding new ways to invent the mouse trap and then giving me the same mouse trap with a bow on it... That is what your doing here.

You just don't get it Richard and I hope other innoncent people don't get into your business. It's not about costs or whatever excuse you want to make up in your mind. It's about good business practices. This just is NOT one. Sorry but if you were on "Shark Tank" I would say I am "Out" along with every other shark on here.

Former HOA President
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Why should it be "Better"? is my question. The legal system has worked for many years. It can only make one "whole" and not a profit. This is debt pursuing of people who have financial issues that can't afford to pay their mortgage or bills. You really think your going to get money out of them? Nope and it cost more money to try.

A HOA does NOT keep or maintain home values. Anyone who sold you that bill of goods was truly drinking the Kool-aid. A HOA has not a thing to do with your home values. What it does do is make your home more ATTRACTIVE to potential buyers. The actual value of your home is based on location, square footage, and the price houses have sold in a few mile radius. No where does it take into account if your grass is cut to a certain height and follows the HOA rules.

What is in it for you is most likely ego feeding. You have an ego issue and it really does show. No one gets more of an ego boost than when they play "Hero". In your case, your doing zero to help yourself be a hero. Instead your just showing how doing business with you would end up a big mistake.

Former HOA President
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
Melissa,

Richard is assuming the following occurs:

1) The Association went through the expense of obtaining a judgement lien (Note).

Typically an Association does not seek a judgement lien. They simply record the continuing lien they already have on the property. Typically if the member have the financial means to pay, this action will typically result in having the debt paid. If the member does not have the financial means to pay, the Association has the option of foreclosing on the lien to stop the bleeding and hopefully have someone buy it so payments will continue.

2) The note is valuable enough to attract investors.

Lets use Richards own words here:

"An Investor may pay the full face value of a judgment lien if their is equity in the house and the sale would cover the full value plus 18% interest accrued from the recording date. (or whatever the interest rate may be, it' 18% in MD)"

What he fails to point out is that if there is equity in the home, the owner would likely pay the lien to keep the equity. If there is equity in the home, when the owner sells, the lien would be satisfied at closing.

Of course what isn't being said is that if there isn't equity in the home, if foreclosed on it likely won't sell during a sheriffs auction and then the Association would have control of the property. If the property can't be sold at a sheriff's auction, it's unlikely investors will be interested in the note the Association spent additional funds to obtain.

"An Investor would pay the full face value if he can control the property for a few years and then sell the property for more than the underlying debt before the bank forecloses. "

It would be logical to think that if an investor can control the property for a few years prior to the Bank foreclosing on the property to satisfy their lien OR that the market was turning around and the investor wanted to gamble on the property value increasing enough prior to a banks foreclosure, that they would purchase the property at the sheriffs auction when the Association forecloses on the lien.

What Richard is implying is that the Association spend the additional funds to obtain a judgement lien, then, instead of foreclosing on the property themselves, sell that note to an investor and hope they will foreclose on the property. If one were to follow Richards advice and the investor chose not to foreclose, the Association would have failed to collect it's own investment (debt owed plus legal costs plus court costs) and the bleeding would continue as the current owner would likely still not be paying assessments.

Logically, one would also have to doubt that the investor would be will to pay the full face value of any note being sold.

Again, Richards auction house only works if the Association is willing to spend the extra funds to obtain a judgement lien vs. recording the continuing lien they already have which gives them the option of foreclosing.

Richard has openly admitted that he hasn't approached the Board of Directors in any of the Associations he owns property in with this idea. This gives me the impression that he really doesn't want his Associations to spend his money on obtaining judgement liens. He wants you to spend your members money on obtaining judgement liens and then use his service to obtain pennies on the dollar.

Have you noticed that Richard rarely answers the questions asked of him. Instead he prefers to deflect the question by asking you questions and insinuating that since he owns property in multiple Associations and pays his assessments that he knows more than you do. Perhaps, he doesn't want to answer those questions because he knows that if he does he would likely show that it's typically not worth the cost for an Association to obtain a judgment lien in the hopes of collecting pennies on the dollar.

Lets be honest, it makes more sense that if an Association went through the expense of obtaining a judgement rather than simply recording their continuing lien that the Association likely knows of other properties, bank accounts or where the member works. Knowing this information, that the Association would collect 100% of what is owed by exercising that judgement on those other assets vs. selling the judgement at a loss of what is owed.

OH, to answer Richards question:

Quote:
Posted By RichardA14 on 04/13/2013 7:58 PM

SOMEONE ANSWER THIS Can Auctioning off and assigning those Current Delinquent Judgment Liens against non performing current residence bring the delinquency rate down below 15% so that HOA other homes in that community can qualify for FHA backed loans ?

Actually that 15% in arrears only applies to condominiums. Loans made on properties of single family homes are not limited by that guideline.

The answer to your question is yes, selling the a judgement lien would technically satisfy the lien on that property. Of course so would foreclosing on the lien and selling the property at a sheriffs sale.

The better method would be to have a written reasonable policy in place and enforced on all owners so the delinquency rate never approaches 5% much less 15%.

Richard, lets see if your actually willing to answer these questions (or if you will once again deflect):

1) How large should the debt become in order to justify the expense of obtaining a judgement lien (for the purpose of this discussion lets say a judgment lien will cost $2,000)?

2) Do you have specific proof that this is worthwhile for an Association? Please note, what I mean by that is are there HOAs that have gone through the trouble of obtaining judgement liens and then selling them not looking for info of selling judgements in general just those that were/are obtained by Associations.

3) How far do you believe should your Association allow a member to go in debt prior to recording a lien? (example 1 month, 1 year, etc.).

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Tim, you are correct in your assessment. We have seen these types on here before. All theory no actual action. I've been on that date before...

Those of us who have been in charge of their HOA and not just living in one, know this financial option is a bunch of hooey. I've done a foreclosure and many liens. There is no blood that comes from turnips. Too many different ownership situations.

Even with the 15% quoted, it doesn't mean much. It would either be offering less loan options (No federally backed loans) or higher interest rate on re-fi/new loans. No way does that effect home value. Just the terms of the loan expenses and qualifications.

Basically it comes down to a complete misunderstanding of home values and how those are calculated. One does not have to do with another. So this whole idea is a bunch of glitter.

Former HOA President
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I just caught on that it is "Judgement liens" collection one is trying to sell us collections on. Your right Tim. This is NOT the type of lien a HOA typically does. I've seen a few posters dead set on doing this type but they don't realize they are making it harder on themselves. Even those judgement liens if used, has it's own collection processes dictated by the court. Those judgement liens (liens by lawsuit)could allow for payroll deductions or to be awarded property worth the value of what is owed. However, one would have to know the workplace/social security number to collect payroll wise. Information not given to the HOA or involved in the court process. The other option is that if the HOA was owed $5K and the person had something worth $10K. The HOA would have to give back any profit beyond the 5K sales price back to the debtor. They can only get back what is owed to them.

Judgement liens brought by lawsuits do not tie the owner down to the property. The owner can sell and move on without ever paying that debt/judgement. You don't sue someone in court and walk out with a check. You walk out with a judgment basically saying it is an "IOU". After a few years (7 years in many states) that judgement will have to be renewed to collect. So the person can spend years not paying and the HOA will most likely forget that judgement is out there considering they change board members yearly.

This is why HOA's typically do a different type of lien that holds the owner to the property. The owne can not sell until it is paid off. It also accrues over time. A judgement lien does not typically accrue or add up. It stops where the case of the lawsuit began.

A lien is never a guarantee of getting money even in the best situation. Once that house is foreclosed on by the bank, that lien goes away. The bank always gets paid first. Only the profit would go towards paying off any outstanding debts. Even this is a low percentage. By the time this process has happened the HOA has survived the debt loss and could claim it on their taxes. After that no longer collectible.

Even collection agencies won't touch these type of debts. I know first hand that they won't. Judgement liens are not money makers for them. They like to collect money from insurance claim payouts than judgements. The real money is in insurance claim money not this kind of debt collection.

Don't think I don't know what your trying to do Richard. I have been there before and seen it. It's not a benefit to anyone. It takes away the rights of the HOA to pursue future debt while freeing you up to do it instead. Which means you can charge more money to that debtor for doing so. A "help" to the HOA in your opinion but in reality a huge damaging method to them.

Former HOA President
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardA14 on 04/14/2013 5:51 AM

Let's point out the difference between "just a Lien" and an actual "Judgement".

I did point out this difference and all the other options on page 2 of this thread which was the one being used for discussion of the topic. Of course then Richard decided to SPAM many many other threads.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 04/14/2013 12:53 AM

Richard, lets see if your actually willing to answer these questions (or if you will once again deflect):

1) How large should the debt become in order to justify the expense of obtaining a judgement lien (for the purpose of this discussion lets say a judgment lien will cost $2,000)?

2) Do you have specific proof that this is worthwhile for an Association? Please note, what I mean by that is are there HOAs that have gone through the trouble of obtaining judgement liens and then selling them not looking for info of selling judgements in general just those that were/are obtained by Associations.

3) How far do you believe should your Association allow a member to go in debt prior to recording a lien? (example 1 month, 1 year, etc.).

And even though Richard has returned to try and convince others to use his service (by the way, there are many many other services that offer note buying/selling/trading) he has again tried to deflect and chosen to ignore answering these simple questions.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
You again are under the wrong assumption here. A lien is a JUDGEMENT by the court. There are two types I will limit myself to here. The one you keep referencing to does NOT exist for a HOA. We do NOT sue for a judgement lien. What we do instead is file a lien against the property and NOT person. So there goes your whole theory right there. It is attached to the property NOT a human being. The other lien is still a court judgement but does not have to go through small claims court. It works more like a "Mechanic's lien". That is a lien that is filed by a contractor who doesn't get paid for their work/supplies. They file it against the developer who can't sell the house until they pay back that contractor. It does not go through a judge but is signed off through the court system.

The court system is so backed up they allow other options for daily routine items. Liens are considered a routine event. So they allow in some states not to even require a lawyer to file one. Other states you do have to have a lawyer. Some areas allow you to do it for free while others charge a few hundred dollars in processing fees. Any way you slice it, this type of lien does not go to a person but the property. So no pursuing the person after they sale or are foreclosed on. If it sold, they paid the debt. If they were foreclosed on, it gets taken out in the wash.

I don't know where you got stuck in your head this 15% thing. I filled out the paperwork for the banks during closings. There is no such thing your talking about in regards to collections. They do ask how many properties does the HOA have liens or foreclosing on. It's not how many the banks do. That information just shows the HOA is pursuing debt holders and does not effect too much. What does is the rental rate. Of which you are contributing to. You say you own these properties in HOA's. It is safe to assume you are renting these out. The higher rate of rental property in a HOA is what effects loans. So your actually contributing to the HOA problem not solution. I believe the rental rate of a HOA has to stay under 40%. It changed recently. However, a HOA can not control owners from renting out their property.

So your actually not got the right information you think you have. Instead by renting out all these HOA's homes your the one doing more damage than trying to collect bad debt. Which your agreeing to "take over" yourself leaving the HOA out of further pursuit. Once they sell you that debt, you get the profits and double their existing debt. They are already out say 2K and then you charge them another 2K to sign the debt over to you? You then pursue that 2K of debt with added interest and charges. Your then the one making the profit. NOT the HOA. They just stopped their bleeding. See not so stupid after all for a girl...

Former HOA President
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/14/2013 7:23 AM

The one you keep referencing to does NOT exist for a HOA. We do NOT sue for a judgement lien.

However, an Association could if they chose to.

Typically, the added cost doesn't make it a good choice. Therefore, it is very very rare for an Association to have such a lien.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/14/2013 7:23 AM

The one you keep referencing to does NOT exist for a HOA. We do NOT sue for a judgement lien.

However, an Association could if they chose to.

Typically, the added cost doesn't make it a good choice. Therefore, it is very very rare for an Association to have such a lien.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Your right Tim I should have rephrased that better. A lawsuit against an owner can be used to pursue unpaid dues. That much is correct. However, HOA's do NOT use that method to collect in most situations. A good lawyer will tell you that. A crooked one out to get your money or that is inexperienced won't. That is why I stated that HOA's do NOT use this method to collect as it does not make financial sense to them.

You must keep in mind what an HOA is. It is ALL the owner's grouped together. So all this pursuit of collecting unpaid debts is on your behalf and using your dues to do so. Would you not want a say on how your board goes about collecting that money? Would you want them to buy into this scheme or would you rather they do it the legal way? I am thinking of saving my own behind and wanting my HOA to do this all on the up and up and legal...Plus not tossing my money down the drain to pursue a bad debt. Which if you use the "Richard method" you would not be collecting on. You would pay him to collect on it... Your HOA still has the debt.

Former HOA President
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
Richard once again deflects, never wanting to answer a straight forward question.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardA14 on 04/15/2013 8:57 AM

1) How large should the debt become in order to justify the expense of obtaining a judgement lien (for the purpose of this discussion lets say a judgment lien will cost $2,000)? Answer: The size of the debt does not matter. Each case as to be weighed individually. If you have a lien already, getting a personal judgment for the amount of that lien can be as easy as filing for a judgement in your county. As an owner myself I would file for the judgement lien myself as it is a slam dunk since I have the lien and precise records in order, Filing fee is $28.00 for a claim up to $5,000.

Actually the size of the debt does matter.

With the Association being a Corporation, court rules may prohibit the corporation from bringing action without an attorney or limit the amount that may be brought without legal council. When this occurs, the cost of obtaining the judgement may not be worth the chance of selling the note to receive pennies on the dollar. Additionally, in addition to the filing fee, there are other fees involved as well.

So spending (using my example) $2,000 to obtain a judgement for $200 is not very cost affective. However, spending $150 to simply record the lien an Association already holds, may be worth the money.

As you specified in a different thread: "Common sense does dictate the most profitable course. "

Quote:
Posted By RichardA14 on 04/15/2013 8:57 AM

TimB4, why do you always seem to be so hell bent on trashing ?

I'm not hell bent on trashing. I'm more than willing to discuss an issue on it's merits. However, when the issue becomes a sales pitch and that pitch spreads to other threads in an attempt to increase the opportunity that the pitch is seen, add to it that it's a violation of this sites posting rules, One has to ask -

If the individual is willing to break the 3 simple rules for posting on this site in order to make a dollar, what other more stringent rules/laws are they willing to break to make a dollar? Regardless of the answer to the question, it's typically, prudent not to do business with those individuals.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardA14 on 04/15/2013 9:03 AM

AND YOU KEEP AVOIDING THIS QUESTION: Will selling delinquent judgement liens get those liens of the books of an HOA and reduce that HOA Delinquent Rate which in turn will allow more buyers into that HOA Community with FHA backed loans ?

Actually Richard, that question was already answered.
It was answered in in this thread approx. 5 hours after you asked it the first time.

Here is the response:

Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 04/14/2013 12:53 AM

OH, to answer Richards question:

Posted By RichardA14 on 04/13/2013 7:58 PM

SOMEONE ANSWER THIS Can Auctioning off and assigning those Current Delinquent Judgment Liens against non performing current residence bring the delinquency rate down below 15% so that HOA other homes in that community can qualify for FHA backed loans ?


Actually that 15% in arrears only applies to condominiums. Loans made on properties of single family homes are not limited by that guideline.

The answer to your question is yes, selling the a judgement lien would technically satisfy the lien on that property. Of course so would foreclosing on the lien and selling the property at a sheriffs sale.

The better method would be to have a written reasonable policy in place and enforced on all owners so the delinquency rate never approaches 5% much less 15%.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
Richard,

Why is it you choose to continually violate this site's Posting Rules?

Is it that you have zero respect for the companies that sponsor this site?
Is it that you have zero respect for the members who use this site and do follow the rules?
Is it that you feel the rules should apply to everyone else but you?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardA14 on 04/15/2013 9:39 AM
TimB4

Your example is foolish with no common sense in any context whatsoever. Who in their right mind would even entertain spending $2000 for a $200 Judgement or Lien, let alone using it as an example ?

I asked you to give a dollar amount that would be worth while using the example that a judgement lien would cost $2,000. You are the one who indicated that it wouldn't matter. Therefore, I gave some examples.

I am trying to discuss the issue on the merits.

You are the one advocating that Associations "in all instances" should obtain a judgement lien. I disagree and am trying to demonstrate that an Association should not seek a judgement lien in all instances. It appears that you agree with me on that.

Therefore, at what amount should an Association seek a judgement vs. simply recording it's lien and foreclosing?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
Your the one who said the amount doesn't matter.

I've already demonstrated my point, that it does matter, which you agree with.

This is your business model and idea - therefore, you tell me, at what point is it worth the Association spending the additional funds to obtain a judgement?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardA14 on 04/15/2013 9:39 AM
TimB4

And quote to me in this forum the 3 simple rules you speak of or shut up.

Richard,

I've provided links to this site's posting rules many times just as I've provided links to applicable references. Clicking on the blue words will take you to the link.

However, since you asked me to post the rules, which are available on the Discussion main page right next to "add new topic", here they are [emphasis added]:

Rules for Posting Messages

Welcome to HOATalk.com!

This is a positive place for community association leaders to share ideas and learn. This forum is for community association Boards, Committees, Volunteers & HOA Professionals to discuss topics concerning their association duties.

Topics from individual homeowners, who are not acting as association volunteers, are not addressed here & may be removed.

We have only a few other rules:

(1) Post any relevant topic you like, but please keep it clean, helpful, positive and friendly.

(2) No Selling: No solicitation, advertising, or selling of any kind is allowed here, except for occasional announcements from official site sponsors.

(3) No Mention of Community/Company/Person Names: In order to fairly enforce (2) and prevent liability, we do not allow the mentioning of any community name, company name or product. Please also do not post the full name of any person.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I have reported Richard for breaching terms and conditions of the site.
MatthewW4 (Arizona)
Posts: 500
Posted:
Tim,

Don't get carried away with this. Richard will crash and burn all by himself in good time. I looked at his website and could not figure out what he is doing.

The FAQ's do not work. It appears that one must register to see if there is actually anything really being offered on this site but I am not about to give out my personal information to what looks like a scam.

There is a header that crawls across and clicking on the topic displayed takes you to a blog page with a lot of undocumented legal advice, all written by "Bryan." Each blog page has a graphic consisting of a close-up of a judge's gavel, implying that what is offered is the wisdom of Solomon. With no citations to the authorities that Bryan draws his legal advice from and no reference to his own credentials, the advice is worthless. A person doing what "Bryan" is doing in my state could find himself facing a charge of unauthorized practice of law before the State Bar. Maybe that's why Bryan does not identify himself.

BTW, my experience with noobies in business is that they delude themselves into believing in their own success. First thing they do is buy a new car. Maybe a bigger home or a boat. Then the fertilizer starts hitting the rotary ventilation device and before long they make the trip to bankruptcy court. Wouldn't it be ironic if one of the judgment liens offered on his website was Richard's own.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
Matthew,

You are correct. I shouldn't get too carried away with it. I just know that once a forum becomes a bed of SPAM that it quickly dies. This forum helped me when I needed it and I'd like it to be around to help others in the future.

Based on the fact that Richards posts are no longer showing, it appears that the Moderators have had time to look at the issue and took action.

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