BruceS6 (Florida)
Posts: 10
Posts: 10
Posted:
Does anyone know of HOA lawer in Florida?
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HOA LAWYERS
Started by BruceS6 • 11 replies • 2180 views
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MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It's more important to know the type of lawyer you need and the price of service. People assume they need a "Real Estate" attorney when dealing with their HOA. That's not accurate. Your HOA is a CORPORATION/business. It deals with corporate and contractual type laws. Your better off hiring an attorney with corporate, business, or contractual background. HOA specialized attorney's exist but usually charge a higher rate. Found that many lawyers burn out on HOA law rather quickly so take that into consideration.
You want to know the charges for their retainer and hourly rate. You want to know if you pay the court costs. How much do they charge for communication? They do charge for every phone call, conversation, or email you send them. My rule is unless you get them live and in person, don't leave a message with your name. They may charge you for it.
Check your local yellow pages for phone numbers for lawyer recommendations. There's a hotline of sorts that lets you investigate their history and their status with the bar. It can guide you to find out if that lawyer has a history of being sued or having a bad reputation. Not all lawyers are created equal.
Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. So if you going to choose going through a lawyer to resolve your issues, understand this fact and accept it. The HOA does have to hire a lawyer to represent them in court as they are a corporation. You will find instead most of your solution to your issue in-house in your own documentation. You can waste your time, energy, and money forcing your HOA to follow their own rules but your HOA rules are set up to be resolved amongst itself without court intervention...
You want to know the charges for their retainer and hourly rate. You want to know if you pay the court costs. How much do they charge for communication? They do charge for every phone call, conversation, or email you send them. My rule is unless you get them live and in person, don't leave a message with your name. They may charge you for it.
Check your local yellow pages for phone numbers for lawyer recommendations. There's a hotline of sorts that lets you investigate their history and their status with the bar. It can guide you to find out if that lawyer has a history of being sued or having a bad reputation. Not all lawyers are created equal.
Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. So if you going to choose going through a lawyer to resolve your issues, understand this fact and accept it. The HOA does have to hire a lawyer to represent them in court as they are a corporation. You will find instead most of your solution to your issue in-house in your own documentation. You can waste your time, energy, and money forcing your HOA to follow their own rules but your HOA rules are set up to be resolved amongst itself without court intervention...
Former HOA President
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Bruce...i disagree with Melissa...HOA's are a corporation but the crux of what they have and deal with is covenants that run with the land or in other words real estate. I also think hiring a lawyer without HOA experience is a mistake. Higher cost or not I would seek out someone who has worked with HOA's and has a positive reputation with them.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Sometimes me and BradP have to disagree on subjects. HOA's are complicated. HOA stands for Homeowner's Association. It means that the Homeowners in that subdivision (for easy terms) agree to have rules/regulations they monitor/create/impress on the other homeowners. Those rules are the CC&R's and By-laws. Since the owners ALL have an vested interested in commonality of the property around their homes/inside the subdivision, they work much like stockholders. Thus being "stockholders" who fund the HOA, it's best they protect that interest by incorporating. Hence, how/why a HOA becomes incorporated whether it's non-profit or for-profit.
So stating this, the HOA in general doesn't actual own real estate as much as they manage it. Individual homeowner's can own the property or have exclusive use of it. However, technically a "HOA" doesn't own property. Just the vested interested in maintaining it to keep the value of the homes/property the members own.
I put it this way...IF you buy a house in a HOA, you own the house but basically rent the property it's sitting on. That is how a HOA has the right to foreclose on your home. Your home is sitting on the HOA managed property. Unless you can move the house, your subject to foreclosure and the rules of that property it sits on. It's ALL the owners who own that property.
Given that each HOA/POA is set up differently. It doesn't escape the fact that the HOA doesn't really own property/real estate. It's the rights to manage it they do.
So stating this, the HOA in general doesn't actual own real estate as much as they manage it. Individual homeowner's can own the property or have exclusive use of it. However, technically a "HOA" doesn't own property. Just the vested interested in maintaining it to keep the value of the homes/property the members own.
I put it this way...IF you buy a house in a HOA, you own the house but basically rent the property it's sitting on. That is how a HOA has the right to foreclose on your home. Your home is sitting on the HOA managed property. Unless you can move the house, your subject to foreclosure and the rules of that property it sits on. It's ALL the owners who own that property.
Given that each HOA/POA is set up differently. It doesn't escape the fact that the HOA doesn't really own property/real estate. It's the rights to manage it they do.
Former HOA President
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
I can respect the opinion and agree you are dealing with a corporation but you are also dealng with real estate and restrictions on real estate. Hiring a corporate lawyer with zero hoa or real estate experience would be a mistake in my opinion.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
I agree with Brad--hiring an attorney or firm that specializes in HOA is crucial.
In Calif., for instance, there are a lot of state statutes in CA Civil Code that deal specifically with CID's (Common Interest Developments) that a "corporate" attorney would not necessarily be familiar with.
We pay our HOA attorney an annual retainer of $500, which includes unlimited phone questions to him on routine matters. Only our Property mgr. or board prez may phone him. If we want a written legal opinion from him, his fee is $235 an hour; if their paralegal is involved, the time is billed at $75 per hour. He wrote an opinion recently for us as we wanted to make sure that a rule change we (the board) wanted to make was legal with respects to CA Civil Code.
In Calif., for instance, there are a lot of state statutes in CA Civil Code that deal specifically with CID's (Common Interest Developments) that a "corporate" attorney would not necessarily be familiar with.
We pay our HOA attorney an annual retainer of $500, which includes unlimited phone questions to him on routine matters. Only our Property mgr. or board prez may phone him. If we want a written legal opinion from him, his fee is $235 an hour; if their paralegal is involved, the time is billed at $75 per hour. He wrote an opinion recently for us as we wanted to make sure that a rule change we (the board) wanted to make was legal with respects to CA Civil Code.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
My experience has been that relying on an HOA attorney for everything is not a good idea. Here are two real-life examples that happened to my association:
1. Our development consists of large rural parcels spread out over 400+ square miles. The main function of the association is to maintain the roads. Our first board of directors asked our attorney, who specializes in HOA law, for his written opinion on a variety of topics, including the question as to whether our roads were considered public thoroughfares. The roads are all easements along the perimeters of each parcel. The lawyer reasoned that because the land under the roads was not owned by a public body that they were not public roads. Makes sense, huh? Problem is that the Arizona Supreme Court had issued a written opinion on that very topic and came to the exact opposite conclusion. The topic was way outside the bounds of HOA law. I doubt that the attorney was ever asked that question before or since.
2. After the developer turned control over to the owners we discovered that the developer had filed very confusing articles of incorporation for the association. The Corporation Commission interpretted the articles to be for a business (for-profit) and not a non-profit. During the years he was in control, the developer was clearly aware of the problem (our CC&R's state that the association was to be non-profit) but did not file any amended articles. After we discovered the problem we asked the HOA attorney for his assistance in correcting the problem. Instead of advising us to file amended articles of incorporation, as state law requires, he somehow persuaded an employee of the corporation commission to alter the records (in violation of the law) to change our status to a non-profit. I cannot imagine an attorney familiar with corporate law even considering doing what our attorney did. Amending incorrect articles of incorporation is not something that an HOA lawyer would be expected to know too much about and relying on the wrong attorney just made a bad situation much worse.
Bottom line: hire an HOA lawyer for HOA matters. Hire other attorneys for non-HOA matters.
1. Our development consists of large rural parcels spread out over 400+ square miles. The main function of the association is to maintain the roads. Our first board of directors asked our attorney, who specializes in HOA law, for his written opinion on a variety of topics, including the question as to whether our roads were considered public thoroughfares. The roads are all easements along the perimeters of each parcel. The lawyer reasoned that because the land under the roads was not owned by a public body that they were not public roads. Makes sense, huh? Problem is that the Arizona Supreme Court had issued a written opinion on that very topic and came to the exact opposite conclusion. The topic was way outside the bounds of HOA law. I doubt that the attorney was ever asked that question before or since.
2. After the developer turned control over to the owners we discovered that the developer had filed very confusing articles of incorporation for the association. The Corporation Commission interpretted the articles to be for a business (for-profit) and not a non-profit. During the years he was in control, the developer was clearly aware of the problem (our CC&R's state that the association was to be non-profit) but did not file any amended articles. After we discovered the problem we asked the HOA attorney for his assistance in correcting the problem. Instead of advising us to file amended articles of incorporation, as state law requires, he somehow persuaded an employee of the corporation commission to alter the records (in violation of the law) to change our status to a non-profit. I cannot imagine an attorney familiar with corporate law even considering doing what our attorney did. Amending incorrect articles of incorporation is not something that an HOA lawyer would be expected to know too much about and relying on the wrong attorney just made a bad situation much worse.
Bottom line: hire an HOA lawyer for HOA matters. Hire other attorneys for non-HOA matters.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I LOVE your bottom line. It is soooo true. NOT all lawyers are created equal even in their expertise. That's probably why they all carry that disclaimer stating the same...
I had 3 different lawyers working for me on HOA matters. If it was for filing liens/foreclosure it was a normal HOA lawyer that went through our Bookkeeper. If it was an issue such as changing the HOA rules/laws, it was a lawyer familiar with HOA/contractual laws. When it came to my own disagreement with the HOA, it was a general practice lawyer. (I paid for).
This is why I advise that if your looking for a lawyer, look for one that fits your particular situation. Just because it involves a HOA, doesn't mean hiring a lawyer that specializes in HOA laws. There's all kind of aspects associated with a HOA and whatever your issue may be with them. Do the research and go to multiple sources until your comfortable.
I agree that lawyers do NOT give advice that is 100% correct or accurate. If they did, no one would lose a case...or win...
I had 3 different lawyers working for me on HOA matters. If it was for filing liens/foreclosure it was a normal HOA lawyer that went through our Bookkeeper. If it was an issue such as changing the HOA rules/laws, it was a lawyer familiar with HOA/contractual laws. When it came to my own disagreement with the HOA, it was a general practice lawyer. (I paid for).
This is why I advise that if your looking for a lawyer, look for one that fits your particular situation. Just because it involves a HOA, doesn't mean hiring a lawyer that specializes in HOA laws. There's all kind of aspects associated with a HOA and whatever your issue may be with them. Do the research and go to multiple sources until your comfortable.
I agree that lawyers do NOT give advice that is 100% correct or accurate. If they did, no one would lose a case...or win...
Former HOA President
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Melissa,
I agree with you 100% on this one.
1. When you hire a lawyer, select one that specializes in the area of law that applies to your situation. You wouldn't go to a brain surgeon when you need orthopedic surgery.
2. In any court case, one lawyer typically wins and one typically loses. Statistically, that implies lawyers are "right" only half of the time.
3. Lawyers are not parliamentarians.
4. Somebody has to graduate last in the class.
I agree with you 100% on this one.
1. When you hire a lawyer, select one that specializes in the area of law that applies to your situation. You wouldn't go to a brain surgeon when you need orthopedic surgery.
2. In any court case, one lawyer typically wins and one typically loses. Statistically, that implies lawyers are "right" only half of the time.
3. Lawyers are not parliamentarians.
4. Somebody has to graduate last in the class.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Bruce, I agree with #4 completely...It is SOOOO true! LOL
Former HOA President
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
I think I took the OP's original question to mean an attorney who handles routine HOA matters. Our HOA attorney will, for example, be engaged in revising our CC&Rs & bylaws in 2012, for which we've budgeted. When we have had written opinions from him, he always has not simply used "reason," but also has cited case law. And it's also true that not everything stated in HOA's governing documents is crystal clear, i.e., there often are ambiguities and as pointed out elsewhere, we directors cannot always be sure whether there are state of even federal laws that trump ours.
I'm on our board and along with our HOA attorney, we have a collections attorney, who deals with delinquencies.
We hired a different legal firm specializing in HOA construction defects to go into pre-litigation and then into litigation against our developer. This firm also includes our "reconstruction" attorney, who's making sure we comply with CA Civil Code re: the use of our settlement funds.
I'm on our board and along with our HOA attorney, we have a collections attorney, who deals with delinquencies.
We hired a different legal firm specializing in HOA construction defects to go into pre-litigation and then into litigation against our developer. This firm also includes our "reconstruction" attorney, who's making sure we comply with CA Civil Code re: the use of our settlement funds.
MartinH2 (Florida)
Posts: 24
Posts: 24
Posted:
Start with the following website:
http://www.lawyers.com/Homeowners-Association-Law/Florida/browse-law-firms-by-city.html
http://www.lawyers.com/Homeowners-Association-Law/Florida/browse-law-firms-by-city.html
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