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BeckyP3 (Florida)
Posts: 50
Posted:
Our Florida HOA just voted to accept extensive changes to our governing documents. One of these pertains to action taken by the board of directors without a meeting. Originally it read: "The Directors shall have the right to take any action in the absence of a Board meeting, which they could take at a meeting by obtaining the written approval of all of the Directors. Any action so approved shall have the same effect as though taken at a scheduled meeting of the Board of Directors."

It is now revised to: "The Directors shall have the right to take any action in the absence of a Board meeting. Any action approved shall have the same effect as though approved at a regularly scheduled Board meeting. Decisions shall be put in writing, signed, dated and added to the minutes of the next meeting."

Florida's corporate law permits the board of directors to take action without a meeting if all of the board members consent to the action in writing, unless the articles of incorporation or bylaws provide otherwise.

Removal of the requirement for unanimous consent concerns me because now the board can make any decision outside of a properly announced meeting.

Does this seem like a reasonable change? Can anyone suggest any good reasons for it?

Thanks. I appreciate having the opportunity to post here.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I can see some reasons for it. Think about it. If you only have open board meetings once a month, then that's 12 meetings a year to get things done. Considering many issues pop-up between meetings, having the ability to meet outside of this time is very helpful to have things get done and move along. Let me give an example:

What if a lightbulb burnt out at the front entrance of your HOA. The light bulb is the responsibility of the HOA and is on a high pole. It is noticed Sept 15th. Your open meetings happen Sept. 20th. That's 5 days before the board can discuss the topic. Now after discussing it, they have to hire a contractor due to it's location/condition. They now have to accept 3 bids and vote on the contractor next meeting October 20th. That's now a month and 5 days with a burnt light. The contractor takes another 2 weeks to get the job done. Your now up to 1 month and 25 days for a burnt out light...It could take almost 3 months to get a light replaced if you can only make decisions at the open meetings.

It makes sense for the board to be able to make decisions amongst themselves outside of the assigned monthly meetings as long as it is part of the meeting notes and made aware of to the rest of the interested membership. The board is an elected group of people from the general membership elected to handle the daily duties of the HOA on their behalf. It's only fitting they have some kind of power to be able to do that. There were many times I and my board members had to discuss things to follow up on issues brought up at meetings or concerns. Nothing was hidden from the membership. We just needed the time to properly make our decision in a timely manner.

Former HOA President
DavidW5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 565
Posted:
If the Florida corporate law applies to your association, then the bylaw change is null and void.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
This "privilege" is usually reserved for emergency or clarifiction use, i.e. the painter fee was approved for $400, should he also paint the shutters for another $100?

Since your new verbiage takes OUT the unanimity of the motion, that troubles me. As it reads now, its just a motion vote. The important part of the motion - the debate opportunity - has been lost.

Clarify whether this uses a unanimous vote format. If it doesn't, watch for abuse.

This privilege should be used very rarely, anyway.
PeterD3 (Florida)
Posts: 708
Posted:
I agree The revised language is probably defective and unenforceable.

Having said that, I really don't see the concern here.

ANY decision or action by the BoD is subject to membership critique.

So if a decision or action by the BoD, say "XYZ", were to be enacted "in writing" and a majority of the membership disagrees with it, the BoD would likely have to defend their decision to do XYZ at the next meeting.

Additionally the BoD would need to demonstrate why the decision to enact XYZ "in writing" could NOT wait until the next BoD meeting.

Now if a MAJORITY of the members disagree with the [any] decision [and/or the means in which it was enacted] you would likely have enough membership support to easily recall members (or threaten a recall) to reverse XYZ and/or to prevent this in the future.
(Florida BoD recall is easy and, well, does NOT require a meeting!)

So you see the members do sort of have the last 'vote' on the BoDs actions and HOA operational protocol.

Conversely, if you do not have enough membership support against 'XYZ' then its sort of "no harm, no foul" situation as the membership is not sufficiently concerned by the decision or behaviour.
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidW5 on 12/18/2011 6:11 AM
If the Florida corporate law applies to your association, then the bylaw change is null and void.

I disagree because of the wording of the state law includes the phrase "unless the articles of incorporation or bylaws provide otherwise." In this case, state law allows the bylaws to prevail.
BeckyP3 (Florida)
Posts: 50
Posted:
Thank you all for your comments. There's a lot of food for thought here.

Melissa, I am also a past president (briefly) of my association and served on the board for a year. I understand you. My concern, though, is not about decisions made as you describe, that really need to be done right then. This has always been allowed. Rather, I am concerned about the lack of restraint and oversight when a majority of board members can take significant actions without even the knowledge (until after the fact) of the other board members, and with no opportunity for association members to be present. The actions will have been taken long before the membership knows about them.

David, we are incorporated under Chapter 617 of the Florida Statutes,Corporations Not for Profit.

Susan, I doubt there is any special format. The action will be reported in the next meeting’s minutes, probably naming the directors who made the decision. Since there is also an amendment requiring board members to be on the Design Advisory Board (DAB), now any DAB meeting is also a board meeting and subject to notice requirements. I expect that this omission was intended to make it easier for the board to take action between board meetings, since they have taken on so much.

Our board members are all good people, genuinely well-intentioned, who do a lot for the community. There is no question of their honesty. But there are really just a few who do everything. And there has been a trend for the association to become more powerful and the membership to become complacent, involved socially but not politically. Information is not easy to come by, and questions are given summary, pat answers. It is not a terrible state of affairs. But when our documents were recently updated to be current with Florida law, it seemed to me that the changes went far beyond that. I’m still trying to understand them.

Peter, you’re absolutely right. The members do have ultimate power. And as I mentioned, most are satisfied.
BeckyP3 (Florida)
Posts: 50
Posted:
To enlarge on my comment that most are satisfied: of 94 members, 66 voted to accept the documents as revised and only 5 voted against, the required 2/3 approval of the membership achieved in just a few weeks. Committee members distributed the 38-page revisions document door-to-door, collected the ballots several weeks later, and tallied the votes. The results were announced at our recent annual meeting, when the new documents were distributed.
BeckyP3 (Florida)
Posts: 50
Posted:
Thank you all for the comments you posted. As I said, they have given me food for thought.

Even if the board has done something improper, the majority of the members would not want to criticize people who do so much for them. The best I can do as an individual, I think, is to write a letter stating my concerns.

Other changes to the Bylaws include less stringent meeting notification requirements and the right of a board majority to remove their elected fellows. Oddly, the section requiring that Bylaws amendments be made at a meeting of members was not changed, even though there had been no meetings either to discuss or to vote on the many changes in these restated documents. When I pointed this out, I was told that the board may change the bylaws any time, as they wish.

We'll see how it all pans out. Thanks again.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
By-laws are the general daily rules of the HOA operations. They typically aren't required to be filed anywhere except with the HOA. They can be changed by a vote by the BOD included in the meeting notes of the HOA. They are pretty flexible in their adopting.

It's your actual Convenants and Restrictions that are the contactual agreement of the HOA with all the owners. Those are the ones that are required to be filed at your county level. The requirement for making changes to the CC&R's is usually higher than by-law requirement. It takes 90% of the owners for us to change the CC&R's versus 75% to change the by-laws. Some require a special meeting to make these changes as well. I'd recommend strongly discussing this with an attorney familiar with contractual/business law.

The CC&R's are like the "outline" of the HOA on how the HOA is to operate. The By-laws are more of the filler of that outline. Make sure you know which laws your changing and how to do it properly. A board can't arbitrarily change the CC&R's. It's a true majority vote of members that does that.

Former HOA President
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/19/2011 7:51 AM
By-laws are the general daily rules of the HOA operations. They typically aren't required to be filed anywhere except with the HOA. They can be changed by a vote by the BOD included in the meeting notes of the HOA. They are pretty flexible in their adopting.

It's your actual Convenants and Restrictions that are the contactual agreement of the HOA with all the owners. Those are the ones that are required to be filed at your county level. The requirement for making changes to the CC&R's is usually higher than by-law requirement. It takes 90% of the owners for us to change the CC&R's versus 75% to change the by-laws. Some require a special meeting to make these changes as well. I'd recommend strongly discussing this with an attorney familiar with contractual/business law.

The CC&R's are like the "outline" of the HOA on how the HOA is to operate. The By-laws are more of the filler of that outline. Make sure you know which laws your changing and how to do it properly. A board can't arbitrarily change the CC&R's. It's a true majority vote of members that does that.

I would check with your state, I believe someone said earlier bylaws in Florida are filed somewhere...As to the change, I think it is a bad change and hope you obtained the opinion of your lawyer before doing so. Decisions outside of a meeting should be reserved for emergencies and should take unamious approval in my opinion.
JeffR7 (California)
Posts: 251
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/19/2011 7:51 AM
By-laws are the general daily rules of the HOA operations. They typically aren't required to be filed anywhere except with the HOA. They can be changed by a vote by the BOD included in the meeting notes of the HOA. They are pretty flexible in their adopting.

It's your actual Convenants and Restrictions that are the contactual agreement of the HOA with all the owners. Those are the ones that are required to be filed at your county level. The requirement for making changes to the CC&R's is usually higher than by-law requirement. It takes 90% of the owners for us to change the CC&R's versus 75% to change the by-laws. Some require a special meeting to make these changes as well. I'd recommend strongly discussing this with an attorney familiar with contractual/business law.

The CC&R's are like the "outline" of the HOA on how the HOA is to operate. The By-laws are more of the filler of that outline. Make sure you know which laws your changing and how to do it properly. A board can't arbitrarily change the CC&R's. It's a true majority vote of members that does that.

Bylaws regulate how a corporation functions (elections, recalls, meetings, etc.) Bylaws are not related to CC&Rs and do not clarify them. Every corporation must have bylaws to operate.
BeckyP3 (Florida)
Posts: 50
Posted:
Melissa, thanks for clarifying the distinction between the bylaws and CC&R. Our CC&R includes the bylaws and articles of incorporation as exhibits, so they are all contained in the same document and thus recorded together. Our bylaws describe how they may be amended: "These Bylaws may be amended, at a regular or special meeting of members, by vote of a majority of a quorum of members present in person or by proxy."

It seems to me that the board really can do whatever it wants until somebody takes it to task. That isn't likely to happen, considering the time and expense involved, unless a situation develops where the potential loss to a party is significant enough to make such expense worthwhile.
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BeckyP3 on 12/19/2011 10:14 AM
Melissa, thanks for clarifying the distinction between the bylaws and CC&R. Our CC&R includes the bylaws and articles of incorporation as exhibits, so they are all contained in the same document and thus recorded together. Our bylaws describe how they may be amended: "These Bylaws may be amended, at a regular or special meeting of members, by vote of a majority of a quorum of members present in person or by proxy."

It seems to me that the board really can do whatever it wants until somebody takes it to task. That isn't likely to happen, considering the time and expense involved, unless a situation develops where the potential loss to a party is significant enough to make such expense worthwhile.

Becky

they can't do whatever they want, they have a responsibility to the association to do what is in the best interest of the association. If they don't they open themselves up to issues later on. At the same time it is the homeowner's responsiblity to keep them on task and boards that do whatever they want to do typically have a homeowner group that doesn't hold them accountable.

One question I would have on the bylaw change is did the board follow the appropriate member notification?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I am not saying you don't need By-laws. By-laws just aren't required to be filed. That doesn't mean they aren't necessary. They are the documents that help guide the operation of the HOA like elections, budget creating, and defining positions etc...

CC&R's are like the outline of a book. The By-laws is the book. The book keeps changing while the CC&R's keeps everything in the lines.

Former HOA President
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/19/2011 11:09 AM
I am not saying you don't need By-laws. By-laws just aren't required to be filed. That doesn't mean they aren't necessary. They are the documents that help guide the operation of the HOA like elections, budget creating, and defining positions etc...

CC&R's are like the outline of a book. The By-laws is the book. The book keeps changing while the CC&R's keeps everything in the lines.

again, some states have them filed either with the county or the state...i would check with your appropriate state to make sure you are doing what is expected.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Thanks BradP...After I posted, my statement about different state rules on the matter was accidently deleted by me. Mia culpa...

Former HOA President
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
I, too, think that it's, as Brad puts it, a "bad change." Even though the current board seems to be good people, that could, unfortunately, change. I also, along with Brad, am curious to know if the election to change the docs was conducted legally as stated in your (former) Bylaws or in your state's laws that may supersede your Bylaws.
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
To wrap my thoughts up on this I look at any proposed change not as how it would affect the current board but how would it impact the most corrupt individuals on the earth. I think giving them more reign to circumvent open meeting laws is not good. While jumping through hoops is a pain, the hoops are there for a reason. I can forsee with this change some political postering and decisions made not in the best interest of the community but in the best interest of some individuals. Hopefully it isn't that case but lessening restrictions is not always a good idea.
BeckyP3 (Florida)
Posts: 50
Posted:
I agree with you both. As for whether the vote was taken legally, I've been asking questions about that and so far have not been able to determine that it was. The vote was not taken at a meeting. The open ballot was distributed, collected, and tabulated by the committee that had proposed it. Out-of-town owners were either sent the packet via U.S. mail or via e-mail. The review period was given as 2 weeks, then extended to about 4. The property manager, who is also a member of the committee, confirmed that out-of-towners received their packets and collected some of their votes. Although the committee members were willing to answer questions, there had been no formal opportunity for members to discuss the extensive proposal among themselves. I had been waiting for that and was (not) surprised when none was offered. The committee consisted of three members representing two households, plus the property manager. Those members are on the current board of directors.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047
Posted:
Becky,

As others said, and I agree, the new bylaw most likely won't stand up to a legal challenge.

THE PROBLEM IS, that unless someone actually challenges it (causing expense for both sides) or a Board acknowledges the error and takes steps to correct it, the wording will stand and people will make decisions based on the wording.

I would advise that you have the Board run the documents past an attorney for a legal opinion.

Tim
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Becky, it seems really important to learn how an election must be conducted, who may count ballots, must they be counted in the presence of the membership, etc., etc. in order to learn if th new Bylaws are even legal.
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BeckyP3 on 12/19/2011 1:43 PM
I agree with you both. As for whether the vote was taken legally, I've been asking questions about that and so far have not been able to determine that it was. The vote was not taken at a meeting. The open ballot was distributed, collected, and tabulated by the committee that had proposed it. Out-of-town owners were either sent the packet via U.S. mail or via e-mail. The review period was given as 2 weeks, then extended to about 4. The property manager, who is also a member of the committee, confirmed that out-of-towners received their packets and collected some of their votes. Although the committee members were willing to answer questions, there had been no formal opportunity for members to discuss the extensive proposal among themselves. I had been waiting for that and was (not) surprised when none was offered. The committee consisted of three members representing two households, plus the property manager. Those members are on the current board of directors.


Becky:

without seeing the rest of your bylaws, CC&R's I am not sure but i highly doubt this was a legal vote. for example, my documents say that changing the bylaws has to be done at a meeting called for that purpose, notice must be sent of the date, time, place and must be sent no sooner than 60 days out and no later than 10 days prior. We are only allowed to vote in person or by proxy.

It is possible some other forms of voting are allowed in yours but not voting at a meeting sound fishy at best.
BeckyP3 (Florida)
Posts: 50
Posted:
Brad, on amending:

1)Our bylaws say: "These Bylaws may be amended, at a regular or special meeting of members, by vote of a majority of a quorum of members present in person or by proxy."

2)Our declaration says: "Covenants and restrictions of this declaration may be amended by duly recording an instrument indicating acknowledgement by not less than two-thirds of the owners."

Note that according to our governing documents, a meeting is required for amending the bylaws but not, apparently, for amending the declarations.

3) 720, Florida's HOA law, defers to the above. Unless I missed a big section, 720 doesn't say much about voting procedures. (Condo law (718) does, but that doesn't apply.)

4) Then there's this, from FS617, Corporations Not for Profit, which also applies to us: 617.0701(4)Unless otherwise provided in the articles of incorporation, action required or permitted by this chapter to be taken at an annual or special meeting of members may be taken without a meeting, without prior notice, and without a vote if the action is taken by the members entitled to vote on such action and having not less than the minimum number of votes necessary to authorize such action at a meeting at which all members entitled to vote on such action were present and voted.

I think that means it's okay not to have a meeting if you get enough votes anyway. (?)

I haven't figured all this out yet. The board is very firm in their belief things were properly done, and I know they were careful in their planning. However, I am sure there should have been opportunities for member discussion about these changes. There were some I would have proposed, if so.

BeckyP3 (Florida)
Posts: 50
Posted:
Tim, according to the Board, the proposal was run by a lawyer, who approved the changes. This was stated on the cover letter when the revisions were distributed to members. I questioned the board about it, because I wanted to make sure it really happened. I felt sure that some owners would regard such approval as justification for not reading the proposal thoroughly themselves. Most are probably not very familiar with the governing docs, and this long proposal was so marked up (contained both versions, interlarded) that was not easy to make sense of. For me, anyway. I was told that the proposal was e-mailed to the lawyer who e-mailed it back with notations for 1)changes to be in compliance with law; and 2) suggested changes. The committee made all the necessary changes and as many of the suggested ones as they agreed with. So, in short: yes, a lawyer looked it over.
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BeckyP3 on 12/19/2011 6:03 PM
Brad, on amending:

1)Our bylaws say: "These Bylaws may be amended, at a regular or special meeting of members, by vote of a majority of a quorum of members present in person or by proxy."

2)Our declaration says: "Covenants and restrictions of this declaration may be amended by duly recording an instrument indicating acknowledgement by not less than two-thirds of the owners."

Note that according to our governing documents, a meeting is required for amending the bylaws but not, apparently, for amending the declarations.

3) 720, Florida's HOA law, defers to the above. Unless I missed a big section, 720 doesn't say much about voting procedures. (Condo law (718) does, but that doesn't apply.)

4) Then there's this, from FS617, Corporations Not for Profit, which also applies to us: 617.0701(4)Unless otherwise provided in the articles of incorporation, action required or permitted by this chapter to be taken at an annual or special meeting of members may be taken without a meeting, without prior notice, and without a vote if the action is taken by the members entitled to vote on such action and having not less than the minimum number of votes necessary to authorize such action at a meeting at which all members entitled to vote on such action were present and voted.

I think that means it's okay not to have a meeting if you get enough votes anyway. (?)

I haven't figured all this out yet. The board is very firm in their belief things were properly done, and I know they were careful in their planning. However, I am sure there should have been opportunities for member discussion about these changes. There were some I would have proposed, if so.


becky

according to your bylaws they did not follow protocol to change the bylaws so the change is null and void. The vote would have had to take place at a meeting, you can't have a two week voting time to collect ballots. I would inform the current board that what they did was illegal, if they still want to press forward and change it that is there choice but they need to do at a legit meeting.
JeanneK3 (Maryland)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Becky:
I agree with Brad. In addition, I would do an analysis of the proposed bylaw changes and make sure there is nothing homeowner-unfriendly in them. The fact that an attorney saw them means nothing. Your board has acted rather badly in trying to fly this revision by you. You have to wonder when things are not carefully explained to the homeowners.
Jeanne
BeckyP3 (Florida)
Posts: 50
Posted:
Thanks for your comment, Jeanne. I agree that only an informed membership can make good decisions!
BeckyP3 (Florida)
Posts: 50
Posted:
Thanks for your comment, Jeanne. I agree that only an informed membership can make good decisions!
BeckyP3 (Florida)
Posts: 50
Posted:
(Oops. Hit the send button twice. Sorry.)

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