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RonN2 (Florida)
Posts: 1
Posted:
The Property Owners Association Board of Directors (BoD) may have caused possible violations of ADA, Civil Rights and Fair Housing Amendments Act via new operational procedures for Board of Directors meetings. As a handicap person I need protection against possible violations of my ADA and Civil Rights. Please help.

On September 14, 2011 the Board of Directors (BoD) of the Property Ownwers Association voted and approved new operational procedures.

It is stated in “Item 8. Any person as indicated by a written instrument who is represented at the meeting by another owner or person authorized by power of attorney will be permitted to have such person speak for them.” This means that no person can have a representative speak for them without a POA and maybe that document has to be shown.

Item 8 is all inclusive and has no exemptions for any person who is handicapped, bilingual, etc. one has to have an authorized Power of Attorney (POA) representative to represent them. There is no mention as to who has to pay for a POA document to be drawn up by an attorney or if such has to be presented at a meeting if a person or persons with the POA represents an association member.

Item 8 is listed under the Operational Procedure for the POA Board. 0797-l R2
Property Owners Association
Procedure for Conduct of Meetings

1. This means all handicap people have to have a Power of Attorney (POA) drawn up indicating who can speak for them at the POA BoD meetings. Does this legal instrument have to be shown to prove that the person has such authority to speak?
2. Do all hearing impaired will have to have their sign language person or persons registered as a POA?
3. Do all persons who cannot talk have to have their person registered as a POA?
4. Do all blind persons will have to have their person registered as a POA to read their comments?
5. Do all persons who do not speak English have to have their interpreters registered as a POA?

PLEASE NOTE.
The above was initiated and passed after the following occurred at Board of Directors meeting on July 13, 2011, which may have resulted in possible violations of Federal and State Laws.

My home owners association, may have caused possible violations of ADA, Civil Rights and Fair Housing Amendments Act via new operational procedures for Board of Directors meetings.

I am handicapped and have to walk with a cane and have speech problems do to tubes in my throat during an operation in November 2004. During a Home Owners Association meeting in July 13, 2011, I signed up to talk. I was told to come to the podium and the Vice President knew I had trouble walking and standing. Finally someone in the audience brought the microphone to me. I said I have trouble talking and would like someone to read what I wrote and this was turned down because no one had signed to speak for me.

This was a very humiliating situation, embarrassing and a slam to all handicap persons.

The following action taken that appears to be in retaliation on me because of my request at the July 13, 2011Board meeting.
On September 14, 2011 the Board of Directors (BoD) of Property Association voted and approved new operational procedures.

The Association Bylaws state, 9. Parliamentary rules. Robert’s Rules of Order (latest edition) shall govern the conduct of Association meetings when not in conflict with the Articles of Incorporation of these Bylaws.

I have questions dealing with and I quote, “Item 8. Any person as indicated by a written instrument who is represented at the meeting by another owner or person authorized by power of attorney will be permitted to have such person speak for them.” Item 8 is all inclusive and has no exemptions for any person who is handicapped, bilingual, etc. All have to have an authorized Power of Attorney (POA) representative to represent them and all have to sign in to speak. There is no mention as to who has to pay for a POA document to be drawn up by an attorney or if such has to be presented at a meeting if a person or persons with the POA represents an association member.

1. Can rules such as Item 8 require the handicap that are hearing impaired and require an interrupter to have a Power of Attorney to translate and speak for them?
2. Can rules such as Item 8 require a blind person to have their representative to have POA to read a statement?
3. Can rules such as Item 8 require a non-bilingual person to have a representative to have a POA to translate and speak for them?
4. Do all who what to speak at a Board meeting have to sigh including the POA representative?
5. Is Item 8 a violation of ADA?
6. Is Item 8 a violation ones Civil Rights?
7. Is Item 8 against the Fair Housing Amendments Act?
8. What recourse does one have?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
No offense, but talk about making a federal offense out of something you have done it. I don't think this is a situation of discrimination but simply people not able to handle your situation. Meaning that you being hard to understand in your speech they may feel uncomfortable representing you or speaking for you. It's a personal thing as HOA members are NOT professional people but your neighbors. Let's just be honest here and realize that not everyone is capable of dealing with people with handicaps.

There is a person in my office complex that is hearing impaired and has speech issues. She's very hard to understand and her voice breaks up often. She's a very sweet and kind woman. However, many people try to avoid her because they don't want to offend her because they can't understand what she is saying. I know it's very frustrating for her but in no way is anyone trying to discriminate against her. It's just an uncomfortable situation for some to be around.

With that said, you may want to find a fellow member/neighbor to help you out. Someone who is understanding and patient. It may help to write down what you want to say. Make it as short as possible as no one wants a long meeting no matter who you are. I often read letters the members sent into the office at our meetings. If you send a letter in for the board to address then expect it to be read at the OPEN board meeting. I don't know why your HOA doesn't do this. No need for representation for letters/email sent in.

Understand a HOA isn't exactly a "Professional" organization. It's just a group of homeowners organized amongst themselves to make rules to live with amongst themselves. Maybe a different approach needs to be taken. Be willing to find out what other approach are available.

Former HOA President
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
Melissa, unless I missed something, maybe you did? It doesn't seem to me that the writer blew this up at all into a Federal offense.

This BOD response came about from the June meeting where difficulties arose on both sides as to how to handle the making of a statement by the disabled poster. Seems the BOD is trying to make sure a representative of a disabled or other homeowner is duly authorized, but the BOD imposed the POA requirement. The poster thinks this is onerous, and I wouldn't disagree because there are easier ways to ensure a representative/delegation has authority to speak on a members behalf.

JeffR7 (California)
Posts: 251
Posted:
Ron, with all due respect I think you are a creating a problem where one doesn't exist.

First all of ADA doesn't apply to HOAs. ADA covers public space and HOA is not. Fair Housing does apply, but all it means that HOA must allow you to make reasonable accommodations for your disability. It sounds like your association did exactly that. It allows your to have someone speak on your behalf when they have a valid power of attorney. What do you suggest they do? Allow anyone to speak on anyone's behalf? I also think that this rule doesn't apply to the situation you described. You can always ask someone to speak on your behalf when you are present. Power of Attorney is only useful when you are not present. By being present at the meeting and directing someone to speak on your behalf you in fact are giving them a permission to do so.

As far as who is responsible for paying for a power of attorney? Fair Housing is very clear about the issue. All costs must be paid by the person not housing provider. If the accommodation is temporary the person must pay to build the needed modificationand for taking down when no longer needed.
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
Jeff, there are 2 questions that come to mind. What is needed for someone to speak on behalf of another owner when said owner is present, vs when said owner is absent.

A BOD is being responsible and reasonable if they request something in writing when an owner isn't present, but the guy was turned down when he was there!

You want to make sure any written authorization isn't forged etc so a POA may help to accomplish that, albeit there will be costs.

When the disabled person is present, do you honestly think a written authorization is the least onerous way of accomplishing any concerns the BOD may have that the representative may not be authorized to speak for the disabled person? I don't think so.
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
Forgot to add Ron's statement I was referring to,

"I said I have trouble talking and would like someone to read what I wrote and this was turned down because no one had signed to speak for me."

The guy is sitting right there. Can't be too difficult for the BOD to accept his written submission and read it into the record. Secretary's reads things into record at meetings all the time.
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Ron:

My first reaction when I read your post was embarrassment for the association. Really? Wow! I can understand the power of attorney when you are gone, the reason for a power of attorney is to help manage your affairs in your absence. However, not being allowed to have someone speak for you when you requested and were present is a bunch of BS...

While ADA may not apply, I would argue that a board of directors meeting if required to be open by state statutes would be required to follow applicable ADA laws in terms of providing reasonable accomodations. Even if that isn't correct for any board to do that would be in my opinion reprehensible.

If I were in your shoes I would send the board a certified letter asking to provide you those reasonable accomodations, if they decline I would consult an ADA lawyer for advice. I think the ruling while intentions I think were ok has some serious flaws in it.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
I read the article 8 slightly differently than Ron... To me, it states that anyone with proper notice and/or POA cannot be denied the right to speak for an owner.

it does NOT, however, in any way deny that an owner can ask/request to have another person speak for them. It simply says if they do it in THIS fashion, it can't be denied. It doesn't say it will be denied otherwise.

I can't imagine why, however, any board would not do something so simple as allow a person to assist another in reading, speaking, etc..

Oh, and small nitpick: a bilingual person should NOT need any help in speaking, if one of the two languages they speak is the one being used. Granted, if I were bilingual in Japanese and America, and the board was conducting meetings in French, being bilingual doesn't help much. Being bilingual also isn't a protected class under the ADA.

Old joke:

what do you call a person who speaks three languages? Trilingual.
What do you call a person who speaks two languages? Bilingual.
What do you call a person who speaks only one language?

An American.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
We also need to recognize the intent of this rule. It's intent is to cover situations where the member is either incompacitated or for a renter to speak on the owner's behalf. Renters typically aren't allowed to attend or have a vote in HOA's meetings. Thus the owner appointing them to speak on their behalf may be required in writing. A member who is incompacitated due to reasons such as health or other issues, can have the person named as their Power of Attorney speak for them if presented the need to do so. We had a few owners who had alzheimer's and family members could represent them. However, it was more in the way of negotiating paying dues not expressing opinions on a subject. Anyone could write a letter into the HOA to have their issue addressed.

This sounds like a case of seeing the forrest for the trees. Your living in the forrest your going to see nothing but trees. Try going out to the pasture once and awhile to change your view of the trees...

Former HOA President
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/06/2011 12:21 PM
We also need to recognize the intent of this rule. It's intent is to cover situations where the member is either incompacitated or for a renter to speak on the owner's behalf. Renters typically aren't allowed to attend or have a vote in HOA's meetings. Thus the owner appointing them to speak on their behalf may be required in writing. A member who is incompacitated due to reasons such as health or other issues, can have the person named as their Power of Attorney speak for them if presented the need to do so. We had a few owners who had alzheimer's and family members could represent them. However, it was more in the way of negotiating paying dues not expressing opinions on a subject. Anyone could write a letter into the HOA to have their issue addressed.

This sounds like a case of seeing the forrest for the trees. Your living in the forrest your going to see nothing but trees. Try going out to the pasture once and awhile to change your view of the trees...

Melissa, where did you get that the BoD's intent in adopting the rule came from that? It appears to me to have come up subsequent to Ron's request to have his statement read, which was denied. That had nothing to do with either him being incapacitated or being a renter.
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/06/2011 12:21 PM
We also need to recognize the intent of this rule. It's intent is to cover situations where the member is either incompacitated or for a renter to speak on the owner's behalf. Renters typically aren't allowed to attend or have a vote in HOA's meetings. Thus the owner appointing them to speak on their behalf may be required in writing. A member who is incompacitated due to reasons such as health or other issues, can have the person named as their Power of Attorney speak for them if presented the need to do so. We had a few owners who had alzheimer's and family members could represent them. However, it was more in the way of negotiating paying dues not expressing opinions on a subject. Anyone could write a letter into the HOA to have their issue addressed.

This sounds like a case of seeing the forrest for the trees. Your living in the forrest your going to see nothing but trees. Try going out to the pasture once and awhile to change your view of the trees...

I may buy that argument but if you reread his post you will see he was at a meeting, clearly with all his faculties functioning and asked to have someone read something for him and was denied. Either the board has a) adopted a rule intending to deny reasonable accommodations or 2) is misinterpreting their own rule.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I was saying the rule he was quoting seemed to be misinterpreted. I would say it applied more toward members incompacitated or renters representing owners. It doesn't seem to apply to the situation where the owner is present at the meeting but is unable to speak due to a handicap. Seems they should have allowed them to read the letter at the meeting by someone else. However, we don't know the length of the letter he wanted to read nor the issue the letter was addressing. I may have cut someone off too if I saw a three page letter coming up to the podium and I've been sitting for 2 hours... We don't know if that could have been the situation. I've had to cut meetings short because they ran long. Once the board votes are taken and the official business handled, having general membership speak can be an option or limited. I've seen some limit "Open mike" to 2 minutes per speaker. So I can't see it being an exact coorellation to this being a handicap related issue.

Former HOA President
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
It would be doing a dis-service to just disallow the presentation because you observe the person holding 3 or however many pages. I might be holding a 3" binder but that doesn't mean that is what I am planning on reading out loud. Setting a time and listening would be more reasonable.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Ron,

You quoted the rule as stating, “Any person as indicated by a written instrument who is represented at the meeting by another owner or person authorized by power of attorney will be permitted to have such person speak for them.”

This permits an owner to be represented at a meeting by executing a written instrument authorizing it. I see nothing that requires a Power-of-Attorney. The Power-of-Attorney is an alternative, as indicated by the word “or.”

All you need is a written statement that says “I hereby authorize ____ to speak for me at the BOD meeting on ______, 2011.”

I agree with you that the BOD was way out of line in refusing to allow someone to read your statement for you, knowing that you were unable to do so yourself.

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