Consistently enforce rules and grandfather clause...

NOTE: Our HOA/Covenants does not allow any type of audio/visual equipment to be mounted on the outside of the houses.

We have a homeowner that mounted security cameras on there home and they are pointing at the yard of the home next to them because they are upset at them and want to monitor everything they are doing. I won't get into details but lets just say these homeowners with the camera have a history of harassing all of the past and present neighbors, the police have been out numerous times because of there actions.

The Problem: We told them they need to remove the cameras and that the covenants prohibit them. They came back and said a few other homes in the neighborhood have them and we are not being fair and that we allowed other homes to have them.

To be honest, I have lived in the neighborhood for over 16 years and have never noticed them, if I had I would of written them up. Our management company says that if the cameras have been up for over a year they are grandfathered in. So we really did not allow them or grant them permission...we just never saw them. We did send out letters to the homes with the cameras asking for proof they have been up for over a year.

The only reason we knew about there cameras was that a neighbor complained about them.

The Board really does try to do a good job and address's complaints immediately but sometimes things sneak by. It's impossible to catch every violation.

So...what would you tell them?

My vote is NO. Regardless of the fact that others have gotten away with it and if they would like, they are more than welcomed to take us to court. If the judge says they can have the cameras that's OK with me, I just want to make sure the Board follows and enforces the rules.

Thanks for the reply.

I really have no problem with Cameras, like I said the only reason this one is a problem is that the neighbor was annoyed by someone monitoring them 24/7. To make a long story short, they got the cameras to spy on the neighbors because they are mad at them for installing a french drain along the property line. These people have still and video cameras in the windows and take photos of everyone that visits the neighbors. I have personally seen one of there photo albums that has 100's of documented photos.

The police were called after the neighbor noticed a running video camera pointing at these sons (underage) bedroom window from inside the neighbors window. The police were called and they reviewed the tapes. The "complaining" neighbor now put up a 6' privacy fence.

These cameras are not for security...the ones we told them to take down were only installed on one side of the house, if they were for security it would be a full-perimeter system.

The complaining neighbor read the covenants and it says no cameras. If we allow them we feel the neighbor can come after us for not enforcing the covenants.

Oh yeah...your police comment was spot on. ;-)

Thanks Jeff!

We sent letters to every homeowner who has a camera...we really do try to play fair.

As far as the grandfather clause...I think it's a State/City thing. Our property manager is researching with our legal council.

We tried to not get involved with homeowner vs. homeowner issues were ever possible...in this case the problem was they reported the violation which brought in the board.

Mitch

No one said you can't rewrite the rules to allow the cameras with restrictions if necessary. If a majority of people are for camera's then look into changing the rules to allow them. I don't think your Management company is correct with their "1 year" rule. Sounds like something they made up to avoid dealing with the issue.

I always recommend updating/upgrading your CC&R's every 5 years or so to reflect technology besides the other changes. Technology changes and gets smaller/less evasive. No longer are we dealing with 10 foot round Satellite dishes that the rules of the older HOA's didn't allow because of their size/ugliness. Today's satellite dishes are less intrusive and barely noticeable. Yet many HOA's haven't updated their rules to allow them and just assume to ban them instead. Same with alot of the new "green" energy options out there.

I don't believe camera's prevent crime at all. The crime happens and is caught on tape. Camera's just offer proof a crime occurred and the chance the offender's will be caught. Otherwise, they just make people feel a false sense of security. That's just my opinion. Plus tapes don't always hold up in court.

i would take my cameras off the house mount, and mount them on a pole in the yard.

thus, they are not mounted on the outside of the house.

According to our legal council the "Grandfather Clause" is a Colorado Act:

C.R.S. 38-33.3-123(2)

(2) Notwithstanding any law to the contrary, no action shall be commenced or maintained to enforce the terms of any building restriction contained in the provisions of the declaration, bylaws, articles, or rules and regulations or to compel the removal of any building or improvement because of the violation of the terms of any such building restriction unless the action is commenced within one year from the date from which the person commencing the action knew or in the exercise of reasonable diligence should have known of the violation for which the action is sought to be brought or maintained.

No improvements on the lot unless you submit a request. Nice try. :-)

Good suggestion...we need to research how we can updated the CC&R's, I have a feeling it takes 67% of the folks to approve it and that may be hard to get.

I agree and normally would care less if someone wanted to install reasonably sized cameras, the problem is that these people have been harassing the neighbors for a long time with cameras mounted to broom handles and holding them over the fence to take photos of them, and video cameras with lights inside of the house pointing at the neighbors house at all times of the day/night recording them (flashing red light and lights blazing), one evening they were shooting video into the neighbors sons window and may have caught him undressing...the police were called and tapes reviewed. The neighbor put up a 6' fence so they can no longer do that and now the security cameras would be around 11' high so they can monitor then again.

We are going to propose to them that they can have the cameras as long as the ones on the side of the house are beneath the fence line.

If they do not agree then they can take us to court and that's fine. We will however subpoena everyone of the neighbors around them that have complained about them harassing them as well as the last homeowner who lived next to them who was also constantly harassed with videos and cameras and the neighbors contractors that were also harassed with the same.

So in the end...we think they are using the words "security camera" as a way to be able to monitor everyone.

be aware they can disguise camera's into anything these days. porch lamp, mailbox, etc. only limit is your imagination and pocket book.

they can be wired, wireless and solar powered, they can be fixed or PTZ.

it's easy to spot a cheap wally world or such system, but the more advanced ones even if they were pointed out to you would still have a hard time seeing the camera's.

then if the homeowner happens to live in a part of the HOA where their property adjoins a non HOA private property things can get really interesting. how do you enforce something not on your property or connected via wiring but yet the homeowner uses as if it was on their property?

Just wanted to point these out. in some situations it might be an uphill battle trying to enforce such rules. not exactly as easy to enforce as a car parked on the street or some other easy to spot/enforce violation.

here is an example of what you might be up against.
http://www.amazon.com/Stealth-Patroller-Security-Light-Camera/dp/B001DEEZ9O