Reporting meeting violations?

Started by GuyF • 11 replies • 1362 views

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GuyF (Michigan)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Hello,
Does anyone in the state of Michigan know if there is a government agency where FOI/open meeting law violations can be reported to? Our board, despite being told MANY times they are in violation by having closed meetings with no minutes being made available to the public. BTW, We have what you would call a "Bully Board"

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047

Posted:

Guy,

I have not seen any information for Michigan.

You could complain to the State attorney general who might send a letter to the board. However, most States see conflicts within Associations as civil matters vs. criminal. Therefore, it's typically up to the members of the Association to take the matter into the court system.

If a Board isn't following the Laws of the land or the governing documents, the members typically have the following options:

1. Toss the bums out through a recall election or by not reelecting them at the next scheduled election.

2. Contact the State Attorney General or State Corporation Commission (if the Association is incorporated) to investigate options. These options tend to be slim.

3. Contact a local attorney for possible legal avenues to correct the issue (typically used as a last resort).

4. Live with it.

5. Move.

If apathy within the membership isn't too low, option one can be very successful. If membership apathy is high, then a member is left with options 2,3,4 or 5.

I know it's not what you wanted to hear, but that tends to be the way it is.

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

The time and place of Board meetings should be announced to the Members and there should be seating available for any member who wishes to witness the meeting. Members should not expect to be able to take part in discussions UNLESS called upon by the presiding officer.

Are you saying that they are meeting in an undisclosed place, in a closed up room, unbeknownst to Members?

GuyF (Michigan)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Yes, they meet in the office conference room a week or so before the meeting to decide how they are going to vote at the public meeting.
Kind of a light at the end of the tunnel is the fact that as the older board members are stepping down no one is stepping in to fill the openings.....

GuyF (Michigan)
Posts: 8

Posted:

OH and the last time someone requested to see the minutes of the closed meeting they were told that it was none of their business

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Have you ever thought of it in a different way? It may not be an official meeting they are having together behind those closed doors? Let me put this in perspective a bit. Our HOA meets ONCE a month to vote on issues in an OPEN meeting. That means that items are ONLY voted on for the HOA 12 times a year. That's NOT alot of decision making ability and follow through available to get things done. Especially considering an aging neighborhood, facilities, and numerous request of service etc... There are needs OUTSIDE of that monthly meeting the BOD is also responsible for. Like Archectual approval oversight and other daily/emergency business.

Let me give you an example: A light bulb burns out at the clubhouse. It is noticed by a member and called into the BOD to vote on to change the lightbulb out. The BOD would have to wait until the MONTHLY meeting to vote to change the bulb out. The meeting is 3 weeks away. That's 3 weeks without a light bulb. The meeting comes up. It turns out th location of the burnt out bulb and the requirement to use new environmental friendly bulbs is an issue. It will take a contractor to replace the bulb due to it being at the top area of the roof. The new cost of the bulb is twice the normal bulb price. The BOD has to delay the vote so they can get 3 bids from the contractors and purchase the bulb. It is now 1 month 3 weeks of a burnt out bulb by the next meeting. There has been gathered 3 bids to be presented at that meeting. The meeting the contractor is decided on and agreed to purchase the bulb. However, it is now going to be an additional 2 weeks before the contractor can show up to do the job. We are now at 2 Months 1 Week without a bulb...The NEXT meeting the actual bill and check show up to be paid and reviewed by ALL the members. One member then questions "Why did it take so long to change out the lightbulb and why did we spend this much money? Are we incompetent to change out a lightbulb"? NO. The lightbulb was changed out according to the rules the members INSIST the BOD follow in order to approve expenses as to NOT to look like they are going behind anyone's back. There's your open meeting policy for you and how it can slow down the process.

Your board meeting prior to the meeting is a good thing in my opinion to speed things up a bit. They still aren't making official decisions as it appears in your posting. They are just getting together to discuss their options and get it together when the meeting does happen in front of everyone. I'd rather have a board that is together on their decision making and communicates together than one that only sees each other 1 time a month or year in some cases. Maybe think about it in another perspective... If they are making their decision known at the OPEN meeting what does it matter when it's not? It's the OPEN meetings that count.

Former HOA President

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/09/2011 8:15 AM
Have you ever thought of it in a different way? It may not be an official meeting they are having together behind those closed doors? Let me put this in perspective a bit. Our HOA meets ONCE a month to vote on issues in an OPEN meeting. That means that items are ONLY voted on for the HOA 12 times a year. That's NOT alot of decision making ability and follow through available to get things done. Especially considering an aging neighborhood, facilities, and numerous request of service etc... There are needs OUTSIDE of that monthly meeting the BOD is also responsible for. Like Archectual approval oversight and other daily/emergency business.

Let me give you an example: A light bulb burns out at the clubhouse. It is noticed by a member and called into the BOD to vote on to change the lightbulb out. The BOD would have to wait until the MONTHLY meeting to vote to change the bulb out. The meeting is 3 weeks away. That's 3 weeks without a light bulb. The meeting comes up. It turns out th location of the burnt out bulb and the requirement to use new environmental friendly bulbs is an issue. It will take a contractor to replace the bulb due to it being at the top area of the roof. The new cost of the bulb is twice the normal bulb price. The BOD has to delay the vote so they can get 3 bids from the contractors and purchase the bulb. It is now 1 month 3 weeks of a burnt out bulb by the next meeting. There has been gathered 3 bids to be presented at that meeting. The meeting the contractor is decided on and agreed to purchase the bulb. However, it is now going to be an additional 2 weeks before the contractor can show up to do the job. We are now at 2 Months 1 Week without a bulb...The NEXT meeting the actual bill and check show up to be paid and reviewed by ALL the members. One member then questions "Why did it take so long to change out the lightbulb and why did we spend this much money? Are we incompetent to change out a lightbulb"? NO. The lightbulb was changed out according to the rules the members INSIST the BOD follow in order to approve expenses as to NOT to look like they are going behind anyone's back. There's your open meeting policy for you and how it can slow down the process.

Your board meeting prior to the meeting is a good thing in my opinion to speed things up a bit. They still aren't making official decisions as it appears in your posting. They are just getting together to discuss their options and get it together when the meeting does happen in front of everyone. I'd rather have a board that is together on their decision making and communicates together than one that only sees each other 1 time a month or year in some cases. Maybe think about it in another perspective... If they are making their decision known at the OPEN meeting what does it matter when it's not? It's the OPEN meetings that count.

If you have open meeting laws then what you are proposing is against the law. What you are proposing is illegal in Kansas. Maintenance issues should be handled through your ratification of the budget. Emergencies are another thing. Boards who refuse to follow the law and circumvent it are bad news.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047

Posted:

Melissa,

Changing a light bulb can be done as an action without a meeting. This is because having the light out could cause potential issues and should not wait for the scheduled meeting. Having a meeting prior to the open meeting to discuss issues is a violation of open meeting laws.

From the Fairfax County Community Association Manual: [emphasis added]

"In 2000, the laws were amended to require a notice of the time, date, and place of each
meeting be published where it is reasonably calculated to be seen by a majority of the members
(association newsletter, bulletin board, website, or e-mail). Further, any member who writes to
request such notice must be sent a written notice by first-class mail or e-mail on a continual basis
for a full year. Unless exempt from public knowledge (as in an executive session), a copy of the
full agenda package and supporting materials for each meeting must be made available to review
by the membership. The very clear intent of these amendments is to preclude private board
meetings that attempt to avoid the members, and associations should openly publish the schedule
and location of all meetings, and welcome the attendance and input of all interested members."

Typically, if the board is meeting and discussing Association business, it's a board meeting. Unless this business is something that requires executive session, then the meeting should be open to the membership in States that have open meeting laws. If a Board wishes to minimize time in the actual meeting, meeting packets should be e-mailed or delivered to each board member ahead of time so they have time to read and understand the issue. Any discussion or questions about the material should wait for the actual meeting.

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/09/2011 8:15 AM
If they are making their decision known at the OPEN meeting what does it matter when it's not? It's the OPEN meetings that count.

It matters because the Board is in violation of the open meeting laws.
It matters because any interested member may have a right under the law or governing documents to understand the
issue behind the decisions.
It matters because the Board is giving the impression to the membership that it is hiding something.
It matters because the Board is missing an opportunity to possibly hear different viewpoints or better educated
opinions on an issue from an interested member.
It matters because can create the perception of a "we" "them" type of community. It matters because one member, the original poster, is concerned enough about the community he lives in and asked why.

Tim

JeanI (Louisiana)
Posts: 112

Posted:

I am confused! Why does everyone refer to "open meetings" law as pertinent to HOA meetings. Open meetings laws usually pertain only to meeting requirements for public bodies not to private organizations such as HOA's. However if your bylaws state that all regular and special meetings of the board must be open to the membership than all business witha few exceptions must be done before the membership and all voting on issues must be done publicly. Many HOA's do not have this requirement and therefore inviting the membership is not necessary. check your legal documents. JMI

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047

Posted:

Jean,

You are correct that most State open meeting laws only apply to the State Government public bodies. However, some States have adopted open meeting laws within their HOA statutes that require Associations to have open meetings and may not prohibit it's members from attending. Some of these States only have open meeting requirements for condominiums and not other Homeowner Associations.

Some of these include:

Virginia
California
Arizona

The main thing to remember is to check your State's statutes to see if they require open meetings. If not, continue to check each year as more and more States appear to be adopting them.

Hope this helps,

Tim

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeanI on 11/09/2011 12:57 PM
I am confused! Why does everyone refer to "open meetings" law as pertinent to HOA meetings. Open meetings laws usually pertain only to meeting requirements for public bodies not to private organizations such as HOA's. However if your bylaws state that all regular and special meetings of the board must be open to the membership than all business witha few exceptions must be done before the membership and all voting on issues must be done publicly. Many HOA's do not have this requirement and therefore inviting the membership is not necessary. check your legal documents. JMI

Jean...as Tim said check your State statutues, states are finally catching onto the fact that HOA's are a huge part of the American culture and enacting rules to regulate them. Great example, prior to 2011 there were no open meeting laws in Kansas, we could have board meetings in a storm shelter, by candlelight with no communication to the membership. Starting in 2011 that has changed and we now have to give notice and allow members to attend. While I think most of us would agree that open meetings are good, there were enough horror stories of rogue boards that have forced some states to take action.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047

Posted:

As a side comment.

Even those of us who have and comply with open meeting laws discover that it's not that big of an issue. Typically, it's still only the Board members who attend the meetings. Even when we had a "hot" topic of discussion for our Association, we only had one non-board member show up for that one meeting.

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