JoeH9
(Arizona)
Posts:11
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| 11/04/2011 11:14 PM |
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I understand a homeowner in our hoa wants to add a good size "guest house" in their backyard approx 600-800 sqft and the hoa rules/CCR's state as follows:
"Residential Use. Lots may be used only for the construction and occupancy of Single family dwelling units and typical residential activities incidental thereto, such as the construction and use of private swimming pools, together with common recreational facilities or other common area amenities, if any".
Soooooooo....given the above statement in the CCR's above, can that person add such a "guest house" to their property? I read the above as only a SINGLE family dwelling unit(the home) is allowed and the "guest house" would not be allowed anywhere on the individuals property.
Am I interpreting this correctly? |
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JeffR7
(California)
Posts:245
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| 11/04/2011 11:46 PM |
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I don't think your the way it's written it would prohibit a guest house. Guest houses could be considered a typical part of single family residence.
What is the problem with someone wanting to build a guest house on their private land? |
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JohnB26
(South Carolina)
Posts:579
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| 11/05/2011 6:18 AM |
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...jealousy...
the OP's avenue of attack would be to ensure precise code compliance
(this would make the project very very expensive) |
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MelissaP1
(Alabama)
Posts:2207
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| 11/05/2011 6:39 AM |
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Interesting question...The issue seems to be if adding the guest house makes this a multi-family home instead of a single family one. It also poses the question if this means the guest house should be subject to HOA dues? It's a bit more complicated than just an addition...
I think what would make it a guest house could be the SEPARATE utilities. Meaning if it would have it's own electric/water meter. An addition wouldn't have separate utilities/water meter but then could be defined as a multi-family home.
This would take additional research to see if it would be a deed violation with the county beyond just the HOA's documents. Plus the setup of the HOA would have to be known. Do the owner's own the land or is it considered "Common Property" around the homes? A better description of the HOA's setup is needed in giving better advice. |
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BradP
(Kansas)
Posts:2491
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| 11/05/2011 6:52 AM |
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| Joe...I agree with you...single family use only and this sounds like it is stretching that. I would also check your CC&R's as it pertains to additional structures being built. |
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JoeH9
(Arizona)
Posts:11
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| 11/05/2011 9:19 AM |
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| No problem as long as it's allowed and people around the surround property are ok with it in terms of aesthetics. |
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JoeH9
(Arizona)
Posts:11
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| 11/05/2011 9:20 AM |
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Posted By JeffR7 on 11/04/2011 11:46 PM
I don't think your the way it's written it would prohibit a guest house. Guest houses could be considered a typical part of single family residence.
What is the problem with someone wanting to build a guest house on their private land?
No problem as long as it's allowed and people around the surround property are ok with it in terms of aesthetics.
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JoeH9
(Arizona)
Posts:11
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| 11/05/2011 9:23 AM |
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Posted By JohnB26 on 11/05/2011 6:18 AM
...jealousy...
the OP's avenue of attack would be to ensure precise code compliance
(this would make the project very very expensive)
"...jealousy... "
oh please..just trying to gather facts here...not attacks...OK?
"the OP's avenue of attack would be to ensure precise code compliance"
I understand a city permit is required to build such a building and as you say, inspections would require compliance. I'm sure the HOA also needs this city approval plan before construction is started.
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JoeH9
(Arizona)
Posts:11
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| 11/05/2011 9:26 AM |
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Posted By BradP on 11/05/2011 6:52 AM
Joe...I agree with you...single family use only and this sounds like it is stretching that. I would also check your CC&R's as it pertains to additional structures being built.
BradP....The way the ccr's read, "buildings" are allowed to be erected on property but of course approval is required beforehand....but buildings I figure can be sheds, gazebo's, etc. which I've seen on properties.
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JoeH9
(Arizona)
Posts:11
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| 11/05/2011 9:39 AM |
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Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/05/2011 6:39 AM
Interesting question...The issue seems to be if adding the guest house makes this a multi-family home instead of a single family one. It also poses the question if this means the guest house should be subject to HOA dues? It's a bit more complicated than just an addition...
I think what would make it a guest house could be the SEPARATE utilities. Meaning if it would have it's own electric/water meter. An addition wouldn't have separate utilities/water meter but then could be defined as a multi-family home.
This would take additional research to see if it would be a deed violation with the county beyond just the HOA's documents. Plus the setup of the HOA would have to be known. Do the owner's own the land or is it considered "Common Property" around the homes? A better description of the HOA's setup is needed in giving better advice.
Hmmmm...good points. Don't know if it will have separate meters for electric/water. My understanding is this is a separate building, not attached to the main residence.
Everything I've read in the CCR's refers to common areas as paths, buildings, grass open areas, etc. around our development. I do know they can tell owners/ticket them if they have a messy front yard with weeds, etc. but I'm assuming just because an HOA can do that doesn't mean they "own" our individual property as a "common area"? I'd be interested in hearing your view on this.
Also found this statement in the ccr's:
"Owners of Lots and Parcels. Every owner of a Lot which is subject to assessment shall be a member of the association."
Seems to refer to individual homes as the "owner" if a kit...don't know if this helps.
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MelissaP1
(Alabama)
Posts:2207
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| 11/05/2011 11:43 AM |
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In our HOA a "Lot" is space the house sits on. The areas OUTSIDE that lot were considered "Common area". The owner's had exclusive use of that common area around their lot but had to get approval from the HOA for any modifications to that area. Our only official duty was to provide lawncare to the HOA common areas. Making the areas around ALL the lots allowed us to take care of ALL the common area equally.
My opinion on the guest house is that it shouldn't be approved as it provides an almost "Squater" situation for your HOA. This guest house wouldn't be considered a member and would NOT be paying HOA dues. It would be like adding a home on top of a member's home but charging for 1 member. What would prevent others from "stacking houses?". It could cause a larger burden on your HOA as these guest houses wouldn't be paying for the HOA's amenities but they still have access to them. There would be limited legal actions if the owner/member would stop paying their dues. How would the HOA be able to lien or foreclose against the guest house? They could foreclose against the MAIN property more likely.
I can see adding an addition like a mother-in-law suite with the HOA's and city's approval. However, an actual separate structure for residential purposes would be a no-go. |
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JohnB26
(South Carolina)
Posts:579
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| 11/05/2011 11:51 AM |
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a guest house would generally NOT require/have separate utility meters ..... it would be fed from the 'main house' and merely serve to house guests (NOT PAYING TENANTS) in a separate structure for convenience and privacy .... should the utilities require additional meters due to capacity of main house issues -> they would be registered to and billed to the main house owner ..... single family occupancy DOES include guests ..... how the HOA would enforce that the 'guest house' is not rented out is a separate issue as such rental would render the property into multi-family usage (which is generally prohibitted by covenant)
just for a good Ha-Ha: a 'contributing' relative/family member permanently occupying said guest house would present a good source of income for the resulting attorney involvement(s)
in any case: one property/lot = one vote = one set of 'dues', regardless of where on the property the (permitted) guests actually sleep |
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JoeH9
(Arizona)
Posts:11
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| 11/05/2011 12:06 PM |
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Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/05/2011 11:43 AM
In our HOA a "Lot" is space the house sits on. The areas OUTSIDE that lot were considered "Common area". The owner's had exclusive use of that common area around their lot but had to get approval from the HOA for any modifications to that area. Our only official duty was to provide lawncare to the HOA common areas. Making the areas around ALL the lots allowed us to take care of ALL the common area equally.
My opinion on the guest house is that it shouldn't be approved as it provides an almost "Squater" situation for your HOA. This guest house wouldn't be considered a member and would NOT be paying HOA dues. It would be like adding a home on top of a member's home but charging for 1 member. What would prevent others from "stacking houses?". It could cause a larger burden on your HOA as these guest houses wouldn't be paying for the HOA's amenities but they still have access to them. There would be limited legal actions if the owner/member would stop paying their dues. How would the HOA be able to lien or foreclose against the guest house? They could foreclose against the MAIN property more likely.
I can see adding an addition like a mother-in-law suite with the HOA's and city's approval. However, an actual separate structure for residential purposes would be a no-go.
Melissa, one thing I know is I heard it's illegal for one to rent out a guest home to someone other than the original owners/family as in this situation though I don't know if that's a city rule or HOA....I'm guessing probably both. The person is suppose to be just using it for their own purpose, older parents to visit, other people coming to visit, extra space, etc. but no collecting money for it to rent to a separate family..... And also do you think the HOA dues issue, if it was just for personal use by the current homeowner's, still come into play?
I just go back to the original post I made where I read in the CCR's a single lot is for a "lots" used only for "single family dwelling units".....does it even allow for the construction of such a guest house if it's to be used only by the owners/friends/families/no renting for $ involved? |
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JoeH9
(Arizona)
Posts:11
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| 11/05/2011 12:12 PM |
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Posted By JohnB26 on 11/05/2011 11:51 AM
a guest house would generally NOT require/have separate utility meters ..... it would be fed from the 'main house' and merely serve to house guests (NOT PAYING TENANTS) in a separate structure for convenience and privacy .... should the utilities require additional meters due to capacity of main house issues -> they would be registered to and billed to the main house owner ..... single family occupancy DOES include guests ..... how the HOA would enforce that the 'guest house' is not rented out is a separate issue as such rental would render the property into multi-family usage (which is generally prohibitted by covenant)
just for a good Ha-Ha: a 'contributing' relative/family member permanently occupying said guest house would present a good source of income for the resulting attorney involvement(s)
in any case: one property/lot = one vote = one set of 'dues', regardless of where on the property the (permitted) guests actually sleep
John, that makes sense. My understanding is that multi-family/separate renting is prohibited by our city and/or like you say most likely not allowed by the covenant. |
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MelissaP1
(Alabama)
Posts:2207
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| 11/05/2011 12:22 PM |
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Did anyone forget about the FUTURE here? These owner's are NOT going to own that place forever. So when the new owner's purchase the property and decide to rent it out to "College kids", how does the HOA handle this? How would the rules of the HOA be applied since they would NOT be considered a member of the HOA?
The guest house situation may work for the "here and now" but the future effects of this can be downgrading to others. I wouldn't allow this to be built. If they want extra room then they should apply for an addition to the home and NOT a separate structure. This could be a benefit for them insurance wise as well. It just isn't a good idea in some HOA situations to have a separate residential structure on the same lot if it doesn't have the same rules. It's like allowing your HOA to have an "island" in it. |
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JoeH9
(Arizona)
Posts:11
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| 11/05/2011 12:30 PM |
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Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/05/2011 12:22 PM
Did anyone forget about the FUTURE here? These owner's are NOT going to own that place forever. So when the new owner's purchase the property and decide to rent it out to "College kids", how does the HOA handle this? How would the rules of the HOA be applied since they would NOT be considered a member of the HOA?
The guest house situation may work for the "here and now" but the future effects of this can be downgrading to others. I wouldn't allow this to be built. If they want extra room then they should apply for an addition to the home and NOT a separate structure. This could be a benefit for them insurance wise as well. It just isn't a good idea in some HOA situations to have a separate residential structure on the same lot if it doesn't have the same rules. It's like allowing your HOA to have an "island" in it.
Melissa, I was wondering the same thing about future owners though I'm guessing the HOA will perhaps "assume" all present/future owners will abide by the rules and if not, face penalties.
But reading your posts, looks like you were a former president of an HOA so you would certainly know better than I how such matters might be decided.
In the same line....what if all neighbors around him "approve"/give their sign off on it that it's ok with them to build this guest house....I would assume the hoa who votes on such things can still override the building of it....not sure how much weight is given to the neighbors signing off that's it's ok to build...
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JeffR7
(California)
Posts:245
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| 11/05/2011 2:19 PM |
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Would've, could've, should've really doesn't matter here, does it. Looking at the language of CC&Rs provided by OP a guest house doesn't seem to be prohibited and therefore is permitted. Of course there will many opinions mostly fueled by one's personal believe. You can also always find an attorney that will interpret anything the way you want it. Ultimately this will become up to a judge/jury's opinion if it ever goes that route.
Different HOAs are setup differently, different board members have different philosophies when it comes to interpreting and enforcing rules. Mine is "live and let live" someone else's is "control everything you can". Some boards will issue a fine/violation letter the minute something happens, my approach (and the one of our board) is to give person an opportunity to fix it on their own. If not done after a reasonable period of time we'll go with an informal, often verbal, notice. After that we go for full enforcement. But again it depends on people.
Certain people want to control one's life by deciding how much space one needs and what he can do in his own backyard. I guess it works for some people and some association. I know it wouldn't work for any that I am involved with.
Why would you consider prohibiting an owner building a house because of something that might or might not happen in a future. How is having a guest house an additional burden for the association? |
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JoeH9
(Arizona)
Posts:11
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| 11/05/2011 2:39 PM |
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Posted By JeffR7 on 11/05/2011 2:19 PM
Would've, could've, should've really doesn't matter here, does it. Looking at the language of CC&Rs provided by OP a guest house doesn't seem to be prohibited and therefore is permitted. Of course there will many opinions mostly fueled by one's personal believe. You can also always find an attorney that will interpret anything the way you want it. Ultimately this will become up to a judge/jury's opinion if it ever goes that route.
Different HOAs are setup differently, different board members have different philosophies when it comes to interpreting and enforcing rules. Mine is "live and let live" someone else's is "control everything you can". Some boards will issue a fine/violation letter the minute something happens, my approach (and the one of our board) is to give person an opportunity to fix it on their own. If not done after a reasonable period of time we'll go with an informal, often verbal, notice. After that we go for full enforcement. But again it depends on people.
Certain people want to control one's life by deciding how much space one needs and what he can do in his own backyard. I guess it works for some people and some association. I know it wouldn't work for any that I am involved with.
Why would you consider prohibiting an owner building a house because of something that might or might not happen in a future. How is having a guest house an additional burden for the association?
Thanks for the response Jeff and very well said. I know what you mean about interpretation of wording and I'm not certainly any legal expert by any means. I also know what you mean about the fine line between letting someone do what they want to do on their own property vs preventing them from doing them. To me, if something is clear in the CCR's that prohibits a homeowner from doing something on their property, then it should be enforced as not allowed.....if it's allowed, then it's allowed and shouldn't be prevented....to me opinions should be left out of such a decision.
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MelissaP1
(Alabama)
Posts:2207
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| 11/05/2011 3:17 PM |
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It's NOT opinions it is FACTS. Look at the legal aspects. How does the HOA have ANY power to make the guest house adhere to the rules of the HOA? Honestly? A normal situation the HOA can lien/foreclose/fine (IF fines are defined)against an owner/member. A guest house is NOT part of the HOA and thus NOT subject to the HOA's rules. So to state that in the future you can make some adherence to the HOA rules, doesn't make any sense if you can't do it now.
People often overlook the fact that their actual documents do NOT have punishments properly defined for violations. The documents just say the HOA CAN enforce punishment against violations but HOW that is to occur. The documentd DO define what happens when owner's do NOT pay their dues/late fees. That is the ability to lien/foreclose. Some states do NOT allow liens/foreclosure to be based on fines. The HOA can't interfere with the contract between an owner and their tenant either. The HOA can ONLY hold the owner responsible for the tenant's violations. A guest house isn't a rented property even to the owner if it were to be used as a guest house only. So how would one be able enforce a guest to follow the rules?
It's just NOT a good idea to allow a guest house to be built overall. It is NOT a violation of a property owner's rights to do so or not. It's a violation against the OTHER owners to allow violation of the rules to occur. |
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Former HOA President |
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JeffR7
(California)
Posts:245
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| 11/05/2011 3:53 PM |
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Melissa, it's unfortunate that you seem to think that your OPINION is the only right opinion.
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/05/2011 3:17 PM
It's NOT opinions it is FACTS.
What exactly is the fact here? CC&Rs as provided in the original post do not prohibit guest houses or other structures to be built on the property. They limit that the structure must be a singe family residence. A guest house doesn't make it a non single family residence as it doesn't have a separate occupancy permit. The property it's being built on is zoned accordingly I assume and building a guest house wouldn't require any zoning changes.
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/05/2011 3:17 PM
Look at the legal aspects. How does the HOA have ANY power to make the guest house adhere to the rules of the HOA? Honestly? A normal situation the HOA can lien/foreclose/fine (IF fines are defined)against an owner/member. A guest house is NOT part of the HOA and thus NOT subject to the HOA's rules. So to state that in the future you can make some adherence to the HOA rules, doesn't make any sense if you can't do it now.
This is where you and I agree. A guest house is not part of the HOA, but same goes for a main house the same way. HOA is not something that you get a membership for. It's a deed restriction. Your deed is not for a house it's for land (in a single family house situation). What you build on that land doesn't change the deed, unless you try to split your parcel. Your enforce CC&Rs through an owner of the property, not directly to a house or a guest house, or any other structure or improvement built there.
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/05/2011 3:17 PM
People often overlook the fact that their actual documents do NOT have punishments properly defined for violations. The documents just say the HOA CAN enforce punishment against violations but HOW that is to occur. The documentd DO define what happens when owner's do NOT pay their dues/late fees. That is the ability to lien/foreclose. Some states do NOT allow liens/foreclosure to be based on fines. The HOA can't interfere with the contract between an owner and their tenant either. The HOA can ONLY hold the owner responsible for the tenant's violations. A guest house isn't a rented property even to the owner if it were to be used as a guest house only. So how would one be able enforce a guest to follow the rules?
Hah???? I am not sure I follow you? What does rent have to do with anything here? Why would enforcing rules inside the guest house be any different than enforcing them in the main house? An owner can let anyone he wants live in his property and the rent charged is not important. You enforce CC&Rs by making sure that you have proper language specifying that any resident of the property must obey by the same rules. These residents can be in a guest house or a main house or live in a tent for all I know.
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/05/2011 3:17 PM
It's just NOT a good idea to allow a guest house to be built overall. It is NOT a violation of a property owner's rights to do so or not. It's a violation against the OTHER owners to allow violation of the rules to occur.
First you still haven't shown us where a guest house is a violation of rules of this particular CC&Rs. If it's not then it is a violation of owner's right not to permit him to build. You happen to think that it's not a good idea to permit. That's your prerogative and definitely something that might work for your or your association. I happen to think that it's a great idea to allow this guest house to be built (still withing acceptable parameters of the association and architectural standards). If this house is sold later it's likely to sell for higher price than one without a guest house. This brings everyone's property value up. Having resident that are not angry at their board generally makes it easier for the board to do their job. Controlling someone's life when it has no affect on your own is not something I do.
But again those are my opinions. They are fine for this board or for a dinner conversation. The matter here is very simply. Is there a restriction on building a guest house on one's property? If the answer is not you shouldn't restrict. |
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PeterD3
(Florida)
Posts:448
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| 11/05/2011 4:48 PM |
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In Fla., for what it's worth, unless additional structures are prohibited or their USE is defined/restricted by any HOA doc., then it would have to be allowed.
In my HOA, no additional structure(s) on my lot can be used as a residence so I would not be able to have a 'guest house'.
Typically the deed 'runs with the land' not on any structure(s) so I don'see how an added structure could somehow be excluded from the restrictions of said deed.
Issues regarding future possibilities of structure useage are pure speculation and have no consideration in interpretation of the law unless expressed in writing.
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JeffR7
(California)
Posts:245
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| 11/05/2011 5:10 PM |
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Peter, that's interesting.
I am wondering why "guest house" is automatically assumed to be a residence. A guest house is common name for just a structure. You'll find guest houses used for guests, sometimes for a nanny/housekeeper, or frequently as an office. I am guessing intended use could play a role in granting/denying you a permission, but generally common sense should prevail.
Just to take it to an extreme: what if you built a tree house and your kid wanted to camp out there with friends overnight? Is that a residence?  |
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PetunkaM
(Florida)
Posts:958
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| 11/05/2011 5:16 PM |
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Joe,
All I can say is that building a guest house is a zoning issue. Not sure about Arizona. Our town is quite strict. Check with your town. Once the owners weave thru all the bureaucracy and get the building permit, they may conclude accommodating friends in a hotel is much, much less expensive. But again, I have no idea what the owner’s definition of a ‘guest house’ is. Nor do I know why you question it?
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JoeH9
(Arizona)
Posts:11
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| 11/06/2011 9:26 AM |
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Posted By PetunkaM on 11/05/2011 5:16 PM
Joe,
All I can say is that building a guest house is a zoning issue. Not sure about Arizona. Our town is quite strict. Check with your town. Once the owners weave thru all the bureaucracy and get the building permit, they may conclude accommodating friends in a hotel is much, much less expensive. But again, I have no idea what the owner’s definition of a ‘guest house’ is. Nor do I know why you question it?
Your Question:
"Nor do I know why you question it?"
My Answer(from the top of the page of the hoatalk.com discussion forum):
"A Positive place for community association leaders to share ideas and learn"
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