Door-to-door solicitation

Started by CarolR11 • 22 replies • 7177 views

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CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

We're a gated high rise condo project. The public has no access to our buildings. Our rules state in quite a lot of detail that, in a nutshell, no door-to-door solicitation is permitted. This includes electioneering.

An owner went door-to-door soliciting signatures on a petition for an improvement to the common area that would mainly benefit him. He wanted to present the petitions to the board of directors.

He argues that going door-to-door is within his rights to freedom of speech. Davis-sterling.com disagrees:

"DOOR-TO-DOOR SOLICITING
Associations are allowed to prohibit door-to-door solicitors and fliers unless the property is freely and openly accessible to the public.Golden Gateway v. Golden Gateway Tenants.

Also, see Attorney General's Opinion on this matter." From Davis-Stirling.com by Adams Kessler PLC."

What do you all think of the "Freedom of Speech" argument? It seems to me to apply to the public realm and doesn't apply to private property, but I'm unsure.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767

Posted:

Carol

Below is the conclusion from the AG's office.

The owner of a mobile home park, the owner of an apartment complex, and the homeowners' association of a condominium project may prohibit uninvited, nonresident political candidates from distributing their campaign materials door-to-door.

Your scenario is from a owner in your complex. If you deny this person, this opportunity, what would happen if the Association needed to go door-to-door soliciting votes to get say the CCR's or Bylaws changed. You might be setting a bad precedent.

JeffR7 (California)
Posts: 251

Posted:

Carol, you may not have much leg to stand on here. Solicitation usually implies outside vendors for a purpose of selling something. Sometimes they sell products or as in election they sell themselves.

This case is very different. It's someone living in the building and he goes to his neighbors asking for a signature which will supposedly benefit the entire building ("common area"). I think you are going too far in your desire to stop him.

How else do you propose neighbors can communicated on common issues? What if this person was going door-to-door collecting signatures on a petition to remove a board member or the entire board. Would you say that's illegal because of your CC&R limitation? I am pretty sure it would not hold water in court.

FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927

Posted:

Prohibiting campaigning on a matter of association interest appears to be non-democratic and could lead to the perception that the board is autocratic and out of control.

The fact that a motion benefits primarily one person is your conclusion and in any case is not a good reason for attempting to prohibit it. How ELSE could a resident exercise his right to petition the board?

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

The rule about solicitation has been in our Rules & Regulations since the project was built (2001).

Richard, the Board, and I'm a member, isn't trying to "deny" this owner this activity, so there's no "precedent" issue.

Jeff, we are not trying to "stop him."

So, Fred, we certainly aren't appearing to be "autocratic."

But I do like the point that we may want to go door-to-door to get enough votes to change our CC&Rs and bylaws. (About 35% of our residents are renters, and we have many owners who only live here part time.) I also think that members should be able to go door-to-door to get petitions signed to recall the board.

DavidW5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 565

Posted:

I'm wondering how you distinguish between solicitation and a resident visiting a neighbor? or multiple neighbors? or all of his neighbors?

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Your trying to say a resident going door to door for a petition is the same as a solicitation. It is not.

JeffR7 (California)
Posts: 251

Posted:

Carol, we might have misunderstood you. I and, I think, others, thought that you want that activity stopped.

You as a board also can go door to door asking for signatures or ballots. Unfortunately without that you may never get a quorum

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

I didn't know that there's a distinction, Steve. How is asking for signatures different than asking for donations, or for folks to buy their products or services? Just curious!

Thanks to everyone for your replies. The owner finished his petition drive and a couple of residents complained to me about him knocking on their doors. Also turns out that the one seeking signatures was giving people misinformation (sigh!).

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CarolR11 on 10/27/2011 6:07 PM
I didn't know that there's a distinction, Steve. How is asking for signatures different than asking for donations, or for folks to buy their products or services? Just curious!

Thanks to everyone for your replies. The owner finished his petition drive and a couple of residents complained to me about him knocking on their doors. Also turns out that the one seeking signatures was giving people misinformation (sigh!).

the difference is that no money is being exchanged, no services are being offered, no goods are being sold or transfered..

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

so·lic·it (s-lst)
v. so·lic·it·ed, so·lic·it·ing, so·lic·its
v.tr.
1. To seek to obtain by persuasion, entreaty, or formal application: a candidate who solicited votes among the factory workers.
2. To petition persistently; importune: solicited the neighbors for donations.
3. To entice or incite to evil or illegal action.
4. To approach or accost (a person) with an offer of sexual services.
v.intr.
1. To make solicitation or petition for something desired.

Technically you don't have to exchange money or goods to solicit...but I think this is a case of using your common sense. We all know what we mean when we say solicitation, sometimes things are black and white, sometimes there is a little gray we have to live in.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Quote:

I didn't know that there's a distinction, Steve. How is asking for signatures different than asking for donations, or for folks to buy their products or services?

Because the resident has a legal right to be there. He lives there. You cant make a rule against talking to your neighbors.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Carol,

Do you allow trick-or-treating? Some people might consider that a form of soliciting.

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

As noted in my 1st post above, we're a gated high rise HOA in an urban setting. So we only have a handful of young families in the 200+ units. I'm sure that if they take the kids trick or treating, they go to a setting where there are others kids in costumes, which is much more fun than roaming our empty, boring corridors.

I'm also sure that residents wouldn't complain about little ones coming to their doors, though the residents might need to be inventive to supply treats Altoid mints, maybe? But to answer your question, Bruce, there's no rule against trick or treating per se and I think it's quite a stretch for it to be termed solicitation, even though technically it could be considered as such.

Thanks for your definition of solicit, Brad. Your #1 is also what I think that "solicit" means.

It's interesting here compared to other kinds of neighborhoods. Even our closest friends phone us before stopping by & vice versa. We've all lived in the 'burbs, where "just stopping by" is common among good friends. There's no rule aginst unexpectedly visiting neighbors & friends, it's just apparently naturally evolved to phone first.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CarolR11 on 10/29/2011 11:56 AM
But to answer your question, Bruce, there's no rule against trick or treating per se and I think it's quite a stretch for it to be termed solicitation, even though technically it could be considered as such.

Carol,

I agree with you, it is quite a stretch. But, in another thread on this forum it was noted that a board member thought that having a garage sale was vending. So, I wouldn't be surprised if someone thinks that trick-or-treating is soliciting.

And I also agree the kids will do their trick-or-treating in the more fertile neighborhoods where the treats will be more plentiful.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BradP on 10/28/2011 10:45 AM
so·lic·it (s-lst)
v. so·lic·it·ed, so·lic·it·ing, so·lic·its
v.tr.
1. To seek to obtain by persuasion, entreaty, or formal application: a candidate who solicited votes among the factory workers.
2. To petition persistently; importune: solicited the neighbors for donations.
3. To entice or incite to evil or illegal action.
4. To approach or accost (a person) with an offer of sexual services.
v.intr.
1. To make solicitation or petition for something desired.

Technically you don't have to exchange money or goods to solicit...but I think this is a case of using your common sense. We all know what we mean when we say solicitation, sometimes things are black and white, sometimes there is a little gray we have to live in.

Not disagreeing, but by this definition, asking for an egg or cup of flour from your neighbor, or to borrow their battery charger, telephone (does anyone do that anymore?), clippers, or hammer is a violation of the rules too.

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BrianB on 10/31/2011 7:54 AM

Brian:

I agree, I think this is where the BOD has to use common sense...hopefully they do.

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563

Posted:

Know what? If, by Brad's definition,, #1, if I'd need to "entreat" or "persuade" my neighbors to borrow an egg, I'd probably seek new neighbors!

Reminds me: New neighbors moved in on our floor and the man knocked and asked to borrow some paper or plastic plates to feed his TRIPLET 2-yr. old grandsons. We said, of course. He then asked, "Would you like to come over and meet them?" We replied, "Uh, ummm, oh, we can't we're on our way out." : )

MichaelH18 (California)
Posts: 1

Posted:

In California there is a rule that says:
Management has the right to enter the space for maintenance at any
reasonable time, but not in a manner or at a time that would interfere with the resident’s quiet enjoyment of his or her home.
I think the argument would be that the manager was bothering you during your quiet time and without notice.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Hello MichaelH18! Kindly note that the conversation thread you just replied to is from 2011

You are more than welcome to also participate in the newer topics of conversation.

CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By n/a on 10/27/2011 6:07 PM
I didn't know that there's a distinction, Steve. How is asking for signatures different than asking for donations, or for folks to buy their products or services? Just curious!

Thanks to everyone for your replies. The owner finished his petition drive and a couple of residents complained to me about him knocking on their doors. Also turns out that the one seeking signatures was giving people misinformation (sigh!).

The difference is it is HOA matters and not someone's business. I would not include any political matter other than board elections.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,047

Posted:

Again an old thread reactivated.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

I think many people use Google or some other search engine and specific queries return hits to topics here without any regard for age. Of course, the person replying should notice the date of what he or she is replying to, but nobody's perfect. I think I've probably necro'ed a few threads in my time (not here though).

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