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Subject: Curfews

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LukeS
(Utah)

Posts:1

08/03/2006 1:40 PM
I am in a townhome PUD in Salt Lake City. Recently we have had some issues with car break-ins and some vandalism. I returned home around 1am the other night from a trip out of town and I noticed two owners in our complex milling around outside (separate from each other) I know both of these people and know that they were responsible for any of the problems but my question is, can the HOA implement an curfew? Our current CC&R's do have a "quiet time" section but not necessarily a curfew? I realize it wouldn't help a lot of the issues but I was just curious if it is something others have tried?

CharlesW1
(Georgia)

Posts:821

08/03/2006 2:18 PM
LukeS- I can’t give you any advice, but I would be interesting in knowing that myself. IMO, There is no reason for anyone for any extended period of time to be outside after dark! I’m sure that what ever it is that is being done, it could wait until the following day. IMO, I feel it would help dramatically. Good post! Chuck W.

Charles E. Wafer Jr.

WilliamT
(Arizona)

Posts:489

08/03/2006 2:26 PM
Some people like to walk their dogs at night; some like to walk at night because it's cooler; for others it may be the only time they have. I would be opposed to any attempt to impose a curfew for adults in my community. That's getting pretty drastic. If you're looking into that, the thing to do is consult an attorney well versed in HOA law. There are curfew laws in most, if not all, stated for youths under 18. It would be a good idea to look those laws up in your state statutes. Bill

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1748

08/03/2006 3:18 PM
since CC&R's are contractual agreements, yes, you could try to impose curfews. You could also try to legislate that all good looking neighbors leave their blinds up, and ugly ones leave their blinds down. And, that only Collies and Maine Coon cats are allowed as pets, and that everyone must drive a volvo. Silver. and only on Sundays. You can do whatever you want, as long as everyone agrees to it. As for a curfew, I for one would be the first to blast any neighborhood that tried that with me in it. I occasionally must respond to emergencies at my workplace at 11, 2 or 4 in the morning... the last thing I want is to be fined by the "curfew police" because I responded to a medical emergency at 3:30 am. Or, because I left early one morning so i could attend a conference call with my counterparts in Ireland and the Philippines, which required I be at work at 0500. As was stated by others, there are plenty of legitimate reasons to be out "after dark". Walking my dog in daylight hours is no fun in Arizona in August. Astronomy classes are tough to do at 6 pm. picking up my brother from the red eye flight at midnight is an occasional task, as is the 2 am need for asthma medication for my wife, a run to the vet hospital with a sick animal, etc..

CharlesW1
(Georgia)

Posts:821

08/03/2006 3:37 PM
I would say residents 16 years and older would be fine. If you have a legitimate excuse then that would be fine. For example, going to work or picking up flu medicine is legitimate. Playing basketball or just the neighborhood kids hanging out is not. There is NO need for them to be outside. If you have a legitimate reason for being outside after dark then it shouldn’t be a problem. I’m sure it needs to be thought through before implementing such a rule. It would only affect the few that shouldn’t be outside. Chuck W.

Charles E. Wafer Jr.

MistiH
(Texas)

Posts:52

08/03/2006 4:56 PM
We considered a curfew for our <=17's to reduce vandalism and noise late at night. However, we were told that because we are county, not city, we cannot impose a curfew. If we incorporate, then we can impose a curfew as a city ordinance. We are a ways off from making an incorporation decision, so for now it is a moot point.

Loving Life in Texas! Misti

NancyM2
(California)

Posts:150

08/03/2006 5:15 PM
Brian ~ Thanks for the humor ~ Nanc

RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:3725

08/03/2006 7:08 PM
Two questions: How can you effectively enforce? I think it would be difficult to impossible. Is an age restriction discrimination? I think it is and wouldn't consider it.

Roger Borcherding Official HOATalk.com Sponsor DARCO Property Management (Colorado) (303) 925-0150 *See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

08/03/2006 7:22 PM
Talk about a bag of worms I would want no part of!!! Most cities have curfews for under 18 year olds, if there are juveniles milling around let the proper authorities handle it. I don't do it often, but there are times I come home at 2 or 3 in the morning from work, how can you police this? Basically you are taking away someone's right to be outside, I wouldn't walk that line. If it is someone you don't recognize or they are acting suspicious call the police and report suspicious activity and let them handle.

MistiH
(Texas)

Posts:52

08/03/2006 7:30 PM
Posted By RogerB on 08/03/2006 7:08 PM Is an age restriction discrimination? I think it is and wouldn't consider it. If an HOA can restrict residency age, why not curfew age? Practically speaking, is one rule more discriminatory than the other?

Loving Life in Texas! Misti

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1748

08/03/2006 9:30 PM
i just love the idea that my kid is outside, in my yard, catching fireflies on a beautiful summer night, or sitting in a lawnchair on my property drinking a yoohoo, and the next week, i get a letter from the HOA with a FINE because my kid was outside the four walls I own, in the yard I own, after X time. If my HOA implemented this, i would RENT children just to sit them in my yard and let the HOA go ballistic. Best entertainment i could have.

HaroldS
(Arizona)

Posts:904

08/03/2006 10:03 PM
ChuckW - I am sure glad I don't live under your control. Harold

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

08/04/2006 6:58 AM
Luke and Charles: Are you saying that if I happen to have a week of work where I leave early and get home late and want to water the flowers or my plants outside after I get home from work that you feel it is ok to levy a fine against me because of a curfew? I understand Luke's original concern about theft and break in's, but there is now way you can regulate what people do at night on their property. We will all read about the ensuing lawsuits in the USA Today if you tried. I think the better answer to Luke's concern is to develop a neighborhood watch, get you and your neighbors proactive and report suspicious people and activity. I know people that belong in our neighborhood, I even know people outside our neighborhood that take walks by our home. If I see someone that doesn't belong, especially at night that is acting funny I call the police. That is the answer, not imposing or trying to impose a curfew.

RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:3725

08/04/2006 8:11 AM
If an HOA can restrict residency age, why not curfew age? Practically speaking, is one rule more discriminatory than the other? Misti, I presume your reference to the HOAs which restrict age is for the over 55 HOAa. These are created developments from the beginning with the 55 age restriction in the Covenants when an owner buys. Whereas, rules established by the Board or the Association must be reasonable. A curfew may be reasonable but a curfew which arbitrarily limits the rights of a certain age group to use the common area is not. This is considered similar to arbitrarily restricting the use of the common area to a certain race or religious group. So practically speaking a restrictive Covenant limiting to over 55 is totally different than limiting youngsters from use of common areas which is an arbitrary Rule.

Roger Borcherding Official HOATalk.com Sponsor DARCO Property Management (Colorado) (303) 925-0150 *See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal

CharlesW1
(Georgia)

Posts:821

08/04/2006 11:08 AM
Yes, long term a curfew may develop problems. This I understand. Although I also feel that if you an adult and you have a legitimate reason for being outside. It’s shouldn’t be a problem. I have read all the responses once again. I hear what you all are saying. I’m not saying if you are walking your dog or talking a walk, or even getting home from work early in the morning. Basically not being mischief. That is all. I also said it would need to be thought through very carefully! This is a good topic. Thanks for educating me. I’m learning a lot. Chuck W.

Charles E. Wafer Jr.

GeraldT1

Posts:0

08/04/2006 3:49 PM
LukeS, As you can see, your discussion topic has created a stir. In all fairness, I can see why so I will contribute to the fuss. To me, the concept of a curfew for anything other than a state of emergency/martial law is an outrageous, and totalitarian proposal. There is such a thing as loitering laws, maybe that offers some protection to you. However, what about the freedoms of congregation that our country was founded upon? I believe wholeheartedely that a curfew is infringement of constitutional rights. RogerB is correct, how do you legislate? How do you determine the outdoor activity is justified, without filing a complaint and therefore letters to the residents, that drive up your administrative budget? What about forming a neighborhood watch program? A lot less extreme than a curfew. As for CharlesW1's posts, I have to say, I couldn't disagree more. I'm an adult, and if me or my kid was outside after dark, and I found out someone filed a complaint, I'd be pissed. If they were permitted to file a complaint because of a curfew law, I probably would have moved already. However I don't know what criteria CharlesW1 uses to establish legitamacy, or what makes him think he can begin to legislate outdoor activities, based upon what criteria? What does a kid or resident do if there is an emergency that requires knocking on a neighbors doors after "hours"? Do they then have to deal with another neighbor's complaints on top of their emergency? Honestly CharlesW1, you've got to be kidding me. Astonished, GeraldT1 NNJ

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1748

08/04/2006 5:39 PM
charles, now that i have the curfew sarcasm out of my system, i will say that this is another one of those issues where you are far better defining the behavior you wish to outlaw than making general rules regarding "symptoms". If you wish to prevent aggressive dogs, then define the behaviors that make up 'agressive', and outlaw them. Don't outlaw a breed. If you wish to ban loitering, young kids who don't belong to the HOA hanging around, skulking behavior, trepassing, vandalism, etc., then define those and ban them. Don't ban "people out after dark". If you paint with a broad brush, you will get nothing but trouble for your efforts.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

08/04/2006 7:52 PM
I think what makes this board so helpful is that people ask questions and state their opinions. Luke and Charles I don't want you to feel like I am belitting what you have said and curtail your possible participation later. Sometimes ideas seem good until you get into the meat of the subject. Brian said it best, find out what the problem really is and work forward from there. As I said before I really think a neighborhood watch is part of the solution to Luke's situation.

AndreaW
(North Carolina)

Posts:57

08/04/2006 9:12 PM
I don't think IMO that imposing curfews on adults would fly, however I agree with defining behavior and that which everyone agrees may be inappropriate. If security is a concern, and you notice there are some neighbors consistently up and out walking at these late hours, maybe instaed of complaining about them you could try to form some sort of neighborhood security watch. We recently had a rash of vehicle and garage break-ins and rather than make any assumptions about our neighbors behavior, we have all tried to help by being on watch if we are in fact up and out around the neighborhood late at night. We have 2 dogs and there are many times when they may need to be walked at 1or 2 am, however we also spend our walk time with the dogs and take notice of any suspicious activity around. ie: unfamiliar cars, or people, or anything that may cause alarm. There is really no need to think that it is OK or accaptable for an HOA to impose lifestyle restrictions when nothing is being violated. As long as they are not walking the neighborhood playing loud head banging music, or causing a ruckus, i say live and let live.

CharlesW1
(Georgia)

Posts:821

08/05/2006 6:55 AM
Brain, I apologize. I thought I had made myself really clear. When I said, “It would have to be thought through before enforcing such”. I would have to give it some really good thought first. Many rules and regulations are intended with very good intentions. These rules and regulations aren’t specific address one certain individual. I realize this first hand. It’s a long story, I’ll try my best. As you may know I am home on disability. I’m recovering from multiple brain surgeries. I have been trying to get life insurance. After my near death experience, it’s a must for me now. I’m being told that it what I had (AVM) is considered a pre-existing condition. I’m trying to argue this with them now for the past year. I didn’t know about the AVM until it erupted and I was rushed to the emergency room. I had it sense birth, undetected for 30 plus years. I saw the cat scans of my brain and the AVM was removed completely. It is no longer there. My argument with the insurance company is this. A smoker could have smoke 25 years and now has stopped smoking the last 6 years, According to the insurance company’s rules. The smoker can only qualify if he/she hasn’t smoked in the six years required. Now how is that fair. I’m sure that the damage is already done for that smoker yet they are going to insure that person. Where I have medical proof that once an AVM has been removed it CAN NOT GROW BACK. After 25 years of smoking. I’m sure cancer or anything associated with smoking has occurred. I don’t see where, the six years of not smoking is changing that. HMMMMMMMM I appreciate your views on the subject matter. Thank you. Chuck W.

Charles E. Wafer Jr.

GeraldT1

Posts:0

08/05/2006 7:27 AM
CharlesW1, I do not believe you have to apologize for your statements, freedom of speech, as is the right to congregate, the backbone of a free society. You have hinted at your current condition in previous posts, you are a survivor, hope you beat the insurance racket, and get the treatment and respect you deserve. You stated, Playing basketball or just the neighborhood kids hanging out is not legitamate. There is NO need for them to be outside. If you have a legitimate reason for being outside after dark then it shouldn’t be a problem. However, "thought through" your actions may be before enforcing your concept of legitamacy, your statement is your response which precipitates action and therefore enforcement. Personally, your statement scares me if it was in a poorly run association with a dictator, as many posts in HOAtalk prove to occur. Hopefully your feelings will be tempered, or outvoted, by other members to the board, or community if it went to a vote of 2/3rds majority. However, from what you've posted about your HOA BOD, they may agree with creating an HOA that is at odds with constitutional rights, and think they should impose a curfew restriction just because the bylaws may permit them to without asking 2/3rds of the community how they feel first. I truly hope the HOATalk forum gives you a chance to explore and formulate your opinions before you join a board of trustees. It seems like it is expanding your horizons, I know it has expanded mine. Often, a BOD must act swiftly to do what is in the best interests of the majority. Understand the fact that sometimes, you don't have an opportunity of time to think things through. Actions can be undone, but you'll see what happens when you revisit your motions and statements in minutes, and the impact of flipflopping on a community. Best of success!! GeraldT1 NNJ

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1748

08/05/2006 8:01 PM
charles, no apology necessary for me! you present a very interesting question, AND, a chance for us to discuss the depths and implications of potential actions. I may not agree with an opinion, but i love people having them! You need never apologize for that.

MistiH
(Texas)

Posts:52

08/06/2006 10:38 AM
Posted By RogerB on 08/04/2006 8:11 AM If an HOA can restrict residency age, why not curfew age? Practically speaking, is one rule more discriminatory than the other? Misti, I presume your reference to the HOAs which restrict age is for the over 55 HOAa. These are created developments from the beginning with the 55 age restriction in the Covenants when an owner buys. Whereas, rules established by the Board or the Association must be reasonable. A curfew may be reasonable but a curfew which arbitrarily limits the rights of a certain age group to use the common area is not. This is considered similar to arbitrarily restricting the use of the common area to a certain race or religious group. So practically speaking a restrictive Covenant limiting to over 55 is totally different than limiting youngsters from use of common areas which is an arbitrary Rule. This is a tender subject for me. How can an HOA legitimately restrict the residents age? Can an HOA be created with covenants stipulating "under 50 and white only". Of course not. There would be, and rightly so, law suits out the wazoo and the HOA would be compelled to comply with non-discrimination laws. I think any discrimination is unjust. Including 55+, no children. JMO, which doesn't make a hill of beans on this topic. Many cities have curfew ordinances for the under 18 group. The under 18's can certainly be outside on their own property. Just not out roaming about. It cuts down on vandalism and nuisance crimes, which are generally committed by the under 18's.

Loving Life in Texas! Misti

JamesC
(Maryland)

Posts:128

08/07/2006 4:47 AM
LukeS Forget the curfew. Contact your local police department and inquire about a COP. (Citizens on Patrol) program for your area. We recently become involved with this national group and the police departments are encouraging all HOA's to implement the programs. Good for them, good for the communities. There are over 2500 cop groups nation wide.

JamesC
(Maryland)

Posts:128

08/07/2006 5:08 AM
LukeS Locating my COP material I would like to share this info. AS of March 2003, they estimated there were between 75,000 to 100,000 active COP volunteers across the natio representing over 5,000 COP organizations. In Southern California alone, they have at least 5,000 COP volunteers representing just 8 major countywide COP groups in a state with 59 counties. In Florida, the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Department has over 5,000 COP members alone. A recent inquiry utilizing a popular internet search engine when queried for "Citizen Patrol Organizations" resulted in a response of over one million hits. COP's have been in use for over 50 years and are one of the best-kept secrets in Law Enforcement today. National Association Citizens On Patrol P.O. Box 727, Corona, Ca 92878-0727 Tel 909-898-8551 Fax 909-279-1915 www.nacop.org I am from Maryland, and we have quite a few cop groups in our state.

MistiH
(Texas)

Posts:52

08/07/2006 5:39 AM
Can you give a brief comparative; COP vs Neighborhood Watch I've never heard of COP b/4. We are getting ready to launch Neighborhood Watch. What is it about COP that you like better than NWP? Thanks

Loving Life in Texas! Misti

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