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PauG
(Maryland)

Posts:44

10/07/2008 10:20 AM
I know this topic has come up before. So sorry for the repeat. We have 122 townhouse association. Our covenants state single family occupancy. Our city government also has livability codes for how many people can occupy a dwelling. We have gotten complaints from residents about some boarding houses. The properties are not being kept up by the owners for one, and we see several adults and in one house I counted seven children many times. I drove in the other day from a day trip and saw at least 10 Hispanic males outside one house drinking, and this is not the first time. Our Association manager says she's keeping an eye on it and that she reported these properties to the City Code Enforcement department. They have done nothing! Long time homeowners are getting sick and tired of our neighbor being taken over with boarding houses. These people do not know the covenants, and probably do not know they are living in an association. They cut down trees, planted veggie gardens in the front yards, ignored letters to repair property, thrown beer bottles into the common areas, set out bulk trash along our trashbins, parked wrecked vehicles (gone after letters sent) in the property, etc. Tonight we are having an HOA meeting. What can we do about this if our City officials will do nothing? We are going to discuss sending each homeowner a letter that complaints have been filed with the management company and the Board of Directors, and that if this is the case they need to shut it down and have only one family per unit. Any suggestions will be helpful.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2489

10/07/2008 10:41 AM
Posted By PauG on 10/07/2008 10:20 AM I know this topic has come up before. So sorry for the repeat. We have 122 townhouse association. Our covenants state single family occupancy. Our city government also has livability codes for how many people can occupy a dwelling. We have gotten complaints from residents about some boarding houses. The properties are not being kept up by the owners for one, and we see several adults and in one house I counted seven children many times. I drove in the other day from a day trip and saw at least 10 Hispanic males outside one house drinking, and this is not the first time. Our Association manager says she's keeping an eye on it and that she reported these properties to the City Code Enforcement department. They have done nothing! Long time homeowners are getting sick and tired of our neighbor being taken over with boarding houses. These people do not know the covenants, and probably do not know they are living in an association. They cut down trees, planted veggie gardens in the front yards, ignored letters to repair property, thrown beer bottles into the common areas, set out bulk trash along our trashbins, parked wrecked vehicles (gone after letters sent) in the property, etc. Tonight we are having an HOA meeting. What can we do about this if our City officials will do nothing? We are going to discuss sending each homeowner a letter that complaints have been filed with the management company and the Board of Directors, and that if this is the case they need to shut it down and have only one family per unit. Any suggestions will be helpful. Paul, First of all, "single family residence" does not mean one family per home. It is a city planning dept phrase referring to the type of housing not the number of family's that can live in a home. Call the city planning dept and ask "what does single family residence" mean? They'll tell you! This is what I did many years ago when this issue first came up to me. Where I live, the number of occupants per residence is only regulated in public housing (HUD rules apply) and apartment rentals. The city -- nor my HOA -- cannot regulate how many people may live in my private residence! I know of some homes that are actually owned by 2 families; who's going to tell those people they can't live in their own home? Secondly, you say your city has ordinances pertaining to the number of persons who can live in a home. Are you sure this applies to homes occupied by the owner or perhaps it only applys to rentals. If your city code enforcement dept did nothing about the complaint, perhaps they detected no violation of city code. Did you talk to a code enforcement officer about this problem? What the board can do is send CCR violation notices for not keeping up the property. I'd stay away from the issue of too many people living in a house unless you know for sure what the laws are on this.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1860

10/07/2008 11:50 AM
Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but city or municipal laws CAN and DO regulate how many people can live in a home. They can't regulate how many FAMILIES do, but very many municipalities have very specific living-space formulas. These are separate from HUD. For example, in my community there were two families who owned a house. Both families had no less than 3 children. So there were 4 adults and at least 6 kids living in the home. Someone in the neighborhood requested our Department of Inspections, Permits and Licensing (IPL) to investigate that the living space minimum requirements were not being violated. It turns out they were. One of the families was ordered to move and they both had to pay fines. Now, there is NOTHING in our HOA documents that address or regulate number of people living in the home. We don't even have any boarding or rental restrictions. So this was not a case of the HOA even having to get involved. We didn't. We couldn't; it would be inappropriate since they did not violate our governing documents. So the appropriate authority stepped in and enforced THEIR regulations. As it should be. For the record, I don't know the exact formula, but it involves the gender of the occupants, specific sleeping/bedroom space for each, specific bathroom facilities, not being able to "convert" common living space (like a living room) to sleeping space, and so forth. My guess is MOST cities have similar regulations.

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:2316

10/07/2008 11:50 AM
Try to stay as objective as possible when voicing things you object to. Site CCRs and other municipal laws or codes. Stay away from personalizing ANY actions. There is nothing wrong with 10 people sitting on a porch, and how do you know this was not a family gathering? Keep race, religion, sex, cultural labels, etc out of the discussion. Keep to just the facts . . . P.S. Be sure the owner is very award of the CCRs and other ordinances. It is his/her responsiblity to keep guests and residents under control and aware of all violations.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2489

10/07/2008 2:52 PM
Posted By MicheleD on 10/07/2008 11:50 AM Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but city or municipal laws CAN and DO regulate how many people can live in a home. They can't regulate how many FAMILIES do, but very many municipalities have very specific living-space formulas. These are separate from HUD. For example, in my community there were two families who owned a house. Both families had no less than 3 children. So there were 4 adults and at least 6 kids living in the home. Someone in the neighborhood requested our Department of Inspections, Permits and Licensing (IPL) to investigate that the living space minimum requirements were not being violated. It turns out they were. One of the families was ordered to move and they both had to pay fines. Now, there is NOTHING in our HOA documents that address or regulate number of people living in the home. We don't even have any boarding or rental restrictions. So this was not a case of the HOA even having to get involved. We didn't. We couldn't; it would be inappropriate since they did not violate our governing documents. So the appropriate authority stepped in and enforced THEIR regulations. As it should be. For the record, I don't know the exact formula, but it involves the gender of the occupants, specific sleeping/bedroom space for each, specific bathroom facilities, not being able to "convert" common living space (like a living room) to sleeping space, and so forth. My guess is MOST cities have similar regulations. Michele, I find it very hard to believe that a city, or even the state, has the authority to make someone move from a home they own because there are too many family members living in the home. If it were me I would have had to challenge that in court!

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1860

10/07/2008 3:02 PM
If it's illegal to house X number of people in X number of square feet, then it's illegal. It's no different from demanding that a business that is set up improperly in an area not zoned for that type of business shut down and move. Now, I don't know exactly what was said to the people or how it was presented, but if they didn't correct the situation, there were seriously penalties to pay. I suppose if the families wanted to fight it, they could have tried, but if they are ordered to correct the violation, whatever that takes, if it means one family moves out (which is what happened) then that's what it means. I know myself that people have been legally evicted from homes for violating that same formula in other parts of the city. The minimum square-foot-per-person rule is generally used to protect children. Our city is VERY aggressive in following it.

JeanneK3
(Maryland)

Posts:134

10/08/2008 7:18 AM
You need to check your governing documents and make sure the Board is enforcing them. I live in a townhouse condominium in Maryland and my documents state "Units may be rented only in entirety; no fraction or portion may be rented. There shall be no subleasing of units or assignment of leases unless approved in writing by the Board of Directors. No transient tenants may be accommodated in a unit. All leases shall be in writing and in a form approved by the Board. All rentals must be for a term of not less than six (6) months." By guess is you have similar language in your documents.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1190

10/08/2008 8:43 AM
First, you should be aware that because you have chosen to spell out ethnic backgrounds you may in fact appear to be racist. I am not saying you are, but the ethnicity of the people should have nothing to do with the situation. Next, having 10 males sitting outside a house drinking beer is not a crime most places. (But you could check into open container laws since some prohibit drinking alcohol in public view.) But understand that 10 or even 50 people in a front yard doesn't constitute anything actionable. People have a right to peaceable assembly. At the end of your remarks you do mention the items you can and should do something about. If your rules prohibit cutting down trees without permission, then go after the people who do just that. (But be sure to go after all rule breakers not just the houses you don't like.) The same goes for the vegie gardens. You have to get evidence about the trowing bottles into the common areas. If you can prove it, then talk to the DA about filing littering charges. But don't bother if you just know who the culprit is. It won't hold up in court.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2489

10/08/2008 9:05 AM
Posted By MicheleD on 10/07/2008 3:02 PM If it's illegal to house X number of people in X number of square feet, then it's illegal. It's no different from demanding that a business that is set up improperly in an area not zoned for that type of business shut down and move. Now, I don't know exactly what was said to the people or how it was presented, but if they didn't correct the situation, there were seriously penalties to pay. I suppose if the families wanted to fight it, they could have tried, but if they are ordered to correct the violation, whatever that takes, if it means one family moves out (which is what happened) then that's what it means. I know myself that people have been legally evicted from homes for violating that same formula in other parts of the city. The minimum square-foot-per-person rule is generally used to protect children. Our city is VERY aggressive in following it. Michele, Please don't get me wrong, I'm not disputing what you say. I just find it very hard to believe that the city can regulate how may people may live in a home owned by those individuals. Regulating renters I can understand, but not regulating owners! So if a married couple with no children buys a little 2 BR house and then has quadruplets they may be told they must sell their home or face huge penalties????? Frankly, I find this quite ludricrous!

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1860

10/08/2008 9:30 AM
If they don't modify the home to properly account for the living space, they can be evicted.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1860

10/08/2008 9:33 AM
Mary, what you have to keep in mind is that these minimum standards are relatively "generous." To have someone violating those minimum standards, there would be no way they could argue that they are providing a safe, clean and livable environment for their family. They can KEEP the home if they want, they just can't continue living there with the same number of people, and they can NOT convert common living space to sleeping space. So they would either have to renovate and properly create minimum living/sleeping/bathroom etc space, or cease living there until they do.

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