DarylF
(Washington)
Posts:69
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| 07/23/2008 7:23 AM |
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Our board has been less then transparent on things they are doing and the president has been making decisions on his own without even consulting the other board members (and lied about it...). I seen mention of an oversight committee in another post/thread and was curious how it works.
Are they copied on all emails and attend all meetings, or do they only get involved when requested? Is a code of conduct created that they enforce? Do they have limitations? How many people are on it and how are they chosen?
At a glance this looks like a great solution to a lot of concern in our community so I’d love to hear about others experiences and opinions.
Thanks!
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MaryA1
(Arizona)
Posts:2248
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| 07/23/2008 7:32 AM |
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Daryl,
Sorry, I have no info regarding an oversight committee. Just one question: are you a board member? IF so, can you provide a little more info regarding exactly what the pres is doing and what you would want this oversight committee to do specifically? |
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BradP
(Kansas)
Posts:1742
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| 07/23/2008 8:16 AM |
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Daryl:
The residents of your community are the oversight committee...They have the power to recall board members and make them accountable. |
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DarylF
(Washington)
Posts:69
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| 07/23/2008 8:53 AM |
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I'd rather not air our dirty laundry, but he has made decisions on his own that has costed the HOA hundreds of dollars and potentially more. When he talks it is clear he thinks he alone is in charge, even though the other board members tell him he is not. At the last meeting a lot of this came to light and he shut down all discussion of him doing this by saying "point taken" repeatedly anytime anyone questioned his solo actions. Thus we are skeptical that the point was truly taken and we would like oversight before he makes more decisons on his own that cost us money where we only find out after the fact.
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TonyM3
(Arizona)
Posts:131
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| 07/23/2008 9:25 AM |
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| While I agree with Brad about the members being the judge of the board's actions I think someone (either one member or a group) has to take point and notify the membership before things get out of hand. |
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EllenS1
(Florida)
Posts:353
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| 07/23/2008 9:37 AM |
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Daryl,
Perhaps a committee isn't even necessary?? Our docs state that all members may attend board meetings. And we also tape the meetings which would show whether the pres is acting without board approval. |
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JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)
Posts:463
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| 07/23/2008 10:01 AM |
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Most HOAs have a hard enough time getting Board members, let alone for a Super Board to watch over the regular one. What next? An Ultra Board to watch over the Super Board?
Wouldn't it be much easier to just straighten out, or if that doesn't work, toss out this prez?
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BradP
(Kansas)
Posts:1742
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| 07/23/2008 10:35 AM |
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| I think oversight is best left to the membership, it is up to them to take an interest in their community. A committee IMO leaves many challenges such as...who appoints them...who oversees them...what are they watching for...etc... |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2840
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| 07/23/2008 10:49 AM |
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Most all Boards are the ones who appoint committees. In your case, that would seem like a foolish thing to have , is a committee watching a Board member who is the one who appointed them. Committees work at the sole discression of the Board and here again, this seems like the tiger chasing his tail around a tree. Getting nowhere. Get this guy off of the Board if indeed he is guilty of fraudulently using association funds. I do hope that this is a documented fact and that you are not going on just hearsay. Has he had his chance to explain what he did or is doing? |
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JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)
Posts:463
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| 07/23/2008 10:52 AM |
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"this seems like the tiger chasing his tail around a tree."
Nice mixed metaphor, Donna! |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2840
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| 07/23/2008 11:03 AM |
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I had more but cleaned it up |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1376
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| 07/23/2008 11:23 AM |
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| Daryl most BOD's elect the officers and it would be a simple matter to remove him from the position of president to say member at large. The money he's allegedly spending is he buying things with HOA money or authorizing repairs without the BOD's approval? |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:2178
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| 07/23/2008 2:04 PM |
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A good audit - or even an audit review - will discover expenditures made without verficialtion (or motion, or authorization, or out of budget expenditures).
At the next meeting, simply request an audit or audit review to expose this culprit. Then that would be your excuse to get rid of him.
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MaryA1
(Arizona)
Posts:2248
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| 07/23/2008 3:11 PM |
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Daryl,
Could you please answer my question? Are you a board member?
Thx! |
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DarylF
(Washington)
Posts:69
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| 07/23/2008 4:31 PM |
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I'm not a board member. I do not want to air our dirty laundry, but he approved an unneeded expense without even knowing how much it would cost or talking to the other board members (probably about $500) and he made an agreement that could end up costing $15-20,000 if what he did on his own is allowed to stand (something needed, but something that is probably not our responsibility and needs to be investigated).
Getting rid of him is not easy. As You all know, 60-70% of the community does not care about anything going on in the HOA and proving any wrong doing by a board member is next to impossible. Plus one other board member and the property manager are his buddies. It's just the third board member and a handful of us that are not happy.
I just seen someone mention an oversight committee in another thread and wanted to know more. I guess it's not an option. |
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TonyM3
(Arizona)
Posts:131
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| 07/23/2008 4:59 PM |
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DarylF, essentially you and the other concerned members are the oversight committee. It's up to you to voice your concerns at the next meeting in a non-threatening, civil manner.
It's possible that the board may have agreed privately to let the President handle the matter. If that's the case then the only thing they might be guilty of is not making that decision at an open meeting. Which is really just a bad habit encouraged by an apathetic membership. |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1376
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| 07/23/2008 7:40 PM |
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| Daryl I'm not picking on you here but how do you KNOW that the president actually did these things? I'm assuming it’s the third BOD member who is telling you this. Now I'm not saying he didn't do the things you've said but understand this person has an agenda and he is telling you his version of it. Since you evidently have a three person BOD if two vote to do something and your friend votes against it then I'm sorry the motion would pass. |
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DarylF
(Washington)
Posts:69
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| 07/23/2008 8:10 PM |
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Posted By GlenL on 07/23/2008 7:40 PM
Daryl I'm not picking on you here but how do you KNOW that the president actually did these things? I'm assuming it’s the third BOD member who is telling you this. Now I'm not saying he didn't do the things you've said but understand this person has an agenda and he is telling you his version of it. Since you evidently have a three person BOD if two vote to do something and your friend votes against it then I'm sorry the motion would pass.
You know what happens when you assume... The president did do these things, he admited it in front of the community, I don't understand why you need to doubt that?! Remember the point taken comment I mentioned? He did that while we were grilling him getting the details and asking why he did all this solo. I was there and I heard it, that is how I know. He did these things before talking to his buddy. The third member of the board learned of these things at the meeting. Maybe it's hard to believe, but our HOA president seems to do what ever he wants. Even if his buddy is a yes man and will agree with whatever he does, that's not a green light to exclude the third member of the board from discussion all together and do what ever he wants knowing his buddy will agree. |
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DarylF
(Washington)
Posts:69
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| 07/23/2008 8:14 PM |
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Posted By DarylF on 07/23/2008 8:53 AM
At the last meeting a lot of this came to light and he shut down all discussion of him doing this by saying "point taken" repeatedly anytime anyone questioned his solo actions.
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TonyM3
(Arizona)
Posts:131
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| 07/23/2008 9:31 PM |
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| I assume this was a general board meeting. Did the third board member make any kind of motion as to the previous disputed action taken by the sole board member/president? Did you infer that from the board member's comment, "point taken", that he understood a line was crossed and didn't plan to venture down that path again? |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1145
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| 07/24/2008 1:55 PM |
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Daryl,
I would put pressure on the other board members to re-elect officers. If the board chose their officers, then they should be able to "re-choose" their officers at will. That is what I would recommend.
You might also communicate directly to the president about fiduciary responsibility. If you have a property manager, then speak to that person as well. They may be able to show the president that the D&O policy has some limits. And if he acted beyond what a reasonable person would believe his scope of power is, he may not be covered should someone sue him.
The $500 thing probably doesn't rise to breach the insurance company can fail to defend. But putting the association on the hook for $15,000 is likely to be considered a "gross" or "negligent" breach. Another question is did this guy sign something for that big ticket expense? |
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MaryA1
(Arizona)
Posts:2248
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| 07/24/2008 2:54 PM |
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Posted By DarylF on 07/23/2008 8:10 PM Posted By GlenL on 07/23/2008 7:40 PM
Daryl I'm not picking on you here but how do you KNOW that the president actually did these things? I'm assuming it’s the third BOD member who is telling you this. Now I'm not saying he didn't do the things you've said but understand this person has an agenda and he is telling you his version of it. Since you evidently have a three person BOD if two vote to do something and your friend votes against it then I'm sorry the motion would pass. You know what happens when you assume... The president did do these things, he admited it in front of the community, I don't understand why you need to doubt that?! Remember the point taken comment I mentioned? He did that while we were grilling him getting the details and asking why he did all this solo. I was there and I heard it, that is how I know. He did these things before talking to his buddy. The third member of the board learned of these things at the meeting. Maybe it's hard to believe, but our HOA president seems to do what ever he wants. Even if his buddy is a yes man and will agree with whatever he does, that's not a green light to exclude the third member of the board from discussion all together and do what ever he wants knowing his buddy will agree.
Daryl,
Like Glen, I to don't want to be viewed as picking on you. It's just that oftentimes we just don't get the whole story. When more details come out many times it's totally different than originally stated. We're just trying to get all the facts.
Now, just because the Pres. responded with "point taken" to all your comments, doesn't mean he was admitting to what you were accusing him of. He was just acknowledging your comments.
You stated above, "our HOA president seems to do what ever he wants". Note you used the word "seems". Sometimes appearances can be deceiving. I'm of the impression you are listening to the third member who may NOT be in agreement with what the Pres and his "yes man" (your characterization) are doing; but that doesn't mean they're doing anything wrong. What you need to do is try to find out more specific info as to what is really going on. That may be difficult to do if the board is not communicating much to the members. Perhaps all three board members need to be replaced! |
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DarylF
(Washington)
Posts:69
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| 07/24/2008 9:15 PM |
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Mary, you don't need the full story??? I just asked about an oversight committee??? I didn't ask you to figure out how to solve all our problems or tell me it's all in my head and I should just shut up and be happy.
All this went down at a community meeting, there is no doubt or gray area, I'm not filling in the blanks with stuff I'm assuming. He said he did it on his own, do you want me to email you the recording of the meeting or can you take my word for it? I'm not dumb, I don't assume things, I'm not making this up. I don't get why I'm on trial here? All I'm doing is asking a stupid question?
Thanks everyone else for the answers to my question, I do appreciate the answers and see that an oversight committee should not be needed and would not be the right solution to our problem. Unfortunately the right solution won't be easy. |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1376
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| 07/24/2008 9:24 PM |
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Posted By DarylF on 07/24/2008 9:15 PM
Unfortunately the right solution won't be easy.
It seldom is easy, if it were, everyone would do it. |
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MicheleD
(Kentucky)
Posts:1710
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| 07/25/2008 8:56 AM |
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Posted By DarylF on 07/23/2008 8:10 PM
You know what happens when you assume...
Yes, and don't forget the part where it makes YOU the same thing. . . (when you "assume," you make an "@ss" out of "U" AND "Me" -- two birds with one stone there.)
Especially when you leave out enough details that you only allow for the other person to "assume."
But to answer your question, again, the HOMEOWNERS themselves are the "oversight" committee, as it should be. If they are apathetic, then inspire them.
My problem with a formal "oversight" committee is, who's going to "oversee" them? Who's going to guarantee that that little group of appointed or elected or however you do it people, another "clique," don't end up smoking THEIR own exhaust and having THEIR own agenda, and then end up hamstringing the board from trying to do THEIR job?
Sounds like a box within a box within a box sort of scenario to me.
The homeowners all have a vested interest in the community and the HOA. Sometimes that means they need to be reminded that they have more power than they realize and that they should not abdicate that power by being absent from the process.
However, if they are, well, unless you can start a grassroots effort to remind them of their own role, then it's pretty much an uphill battle.
Rather than a formal oversight committee, bite the bullet and garner your own group to run for the board.
It's much easier to effect change that way. Or, I would "assume" it to be . . . |
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JohnM3
(Florida)
Posts:208
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| 07/26/2008 11:27 AM |
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Dear Daryl: Did you ever think that what he may have been saying," Point taken" was in fact a shorter way of saying I understand what you are saying. Many Pres whose job it is to run meetings after a while become very short in there statements. Its not that they are disrepecting people he/she is recognizing people.
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JohnM3
(Florida)
Posts:208
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| 07/26/2008 11:34 AM |
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sorry the computer decided to end my conversation with you. In addition you need to understand he is on the BOD as a volunteer. He might be doing things cause the balance of the BOD does not answer emails and calls. So he gets things done. maybe ot the way you feel is best. But guess what he was elected twice to that position of authority. By first a majority of the people present at the election. Then he was elected President by the entire BOD.
Without a complete story it is very difficult to answer your problem. As afr as airing your dirty linen? This web site is a help group not a blame game. We are all not as stupid as Congress. We listen to our members and have experience doing things...............
As to having an oversight comm you got to be jokin we got enough stupid politicans screwing up the only true democray in America.............In my opinion thats what good HOAs are.........
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MaryA1
(Arizona)
Posts:2248
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| 07/26/2008 11:42 AM |
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Posted By DarylF on 07/24/2008 9:15 PM
Mary, you don't need the full story??? I just asked about an oversight committee??? I didn't ask you to figure out how to solve all our problems or tell me it's all in my head and I should just shut up and be happy.
All this went down at a community meeting, there is no doubt or gray area, I'm not filling in the blanks with stuff I'm assuming. He said he did it on his own, do you want me to email you the recording of the meeting or can you take my word for it? I'm not dumb, I don't assume things, I'm not making this up. I don't get why I'm on trial here? All I'm doing is asking a stupid question?
Thanks everyone else for the answers to my question, I do appreciate the answers and see that an oversight committee should not be needed and would not be the right solution to our problem. Unfortunately the right solution won't be easy.
Dary,
Why so defensive? I never told you to "just shut up and be happy". The more info we have the easier it is to give our opinion. Sorry, but I'm a person who likes to know as much as possible b/4 stating my opinion. You'd be surprised at what comes to light when one expounds on their "problem". Look at JohnM FL's response -- he's saying the same thing I did. |
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DarylF
(Washington)
Posts:69
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| 07/28/2008 7:13 AM |
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Posted By DarylF on 07/23/2008 7:23 AM
Our board has been less then transparent on things they are doing and the president has been making decisions on his own without even consulting the other board members (and lied about it...). I seen mention of an oversight committee in another post/thread and was curious how it works.
Are they copied on all emails and attend all meetings, or do they only get involved when requested? Is a code of conduct created that they enforce? Do they have limitations? How many people are on it and how are they chosen?
At a glance this looks like a great solution to a lot of concern in our community so I’d love to hear about others experiences and opinions.
Thanks!
Again, per my original post, I heard someone here mention one and I was just asking a question about it without hijacking another thread. Thank you to those that answered my questions.
I did not intend to get into a discussion about everything our president and property manager has done wrong so please forgive me if I did not brief you on every detail, it would take up far too much of your and my time. Honestly, I could write a book on how not to run an association based on what the the president and PM have done in just the last 2 months (and yes I've lived in an association for quite some time and know how they could and should be run).
And, us electing this clown is a bad assumption. I'm not going to air all the details so please don't ask, but it's a very messed up situation.
I apoligize if I got defensive, but it got quite frustrating to have people pointing the finger back at me when all I did was ask if an oversight committee would be a good idea. I know what our board has done wrong. There is no doubt or question. I don't need to have anyone verify that for me and I don't want to spend hours going through it all yet again, I just wanted opinions on a potential solution.
Maybe another day I'll make a list of everything they have done and include all the details for you all to enjoy, agree with or justify, but I don't have the time now and I don't think it's a good idea to post it all on a public forum.
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MicheleD
(Kentucky)
Posts:1710
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| 07/28/2008 7:35 AM |
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Posted By DarylF on 07/28/2008 7:13 AM
I don't want to spend hours going through it all yet again, I just wanted opinions on a potential solution.
Okay then, no, an "oversight committee" is not a "potential solution," but is another "potential disaster" tied up in a innocent-sounding package.
The oversight needs to come from the homeowners. If they are apathetic, inactive, or chose not to participate, then there is little that one person can do, other than run for the board and hope to change it from the inside.
Best of luck to you and so sorry you have to be dealing with such a frustrating situation. |
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