CharlesH9
(Michigan)
Posts:80
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| 09/09/2008 6:21 PM |
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| charge and what was the outcome? |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2840
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| 09/09/2008 6:26 PM |
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Charles,
What are we missing here? Sounds like someone got in trouble with discrimination? |
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CharlesH9
(Michigan)
Posts:80
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| 09/09/2008 6:34 PM |
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| Maybe I should re-phrase that and say has anyone ever been investigated by HUD OR charged with discrimination by HUD? |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2840
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| 09/09/2008 6:43 PM |
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Charles,
No, I have been in the rental business for quite some time and if you follow the law, there is no way that you can get into trouble. This is something that we posters cannot help to bail you out. What are some specifics? Did you do a "NO NO"? |
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CharlesH9
(Michigan)
Posts:80
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| 09/09/2008 6:46 PM |
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| A reasonable modification/accomodation was requested and denied twice so a complaint was filed with HUD and there is an investigation. |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1145
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| 09/09/2008 7:54 PM |
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I have not had such an experience. But if you are faced with an accommodation (or change for accommodation reasons) you should error on the side of the disabled person. And if you now have HUD looking into the matter, I would be quite concerned. The truth of the matter is that most of the time when a disabled person files a complaint they have to give a strong case to the government to get an investigation opened up. (At least that is the perception from the disabled community.)
In some of the older news feeds, there has been mention of very expensive fines for violations. |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1376
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| 09/10/2008 5:33 AM |
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Charles you could contact this HOA and ask them how they're fairing:
http://www.hud.gov/news/release.cfm?content=pr08-102.cfm
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TamaraW
(Ohio)
Posts:180
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| 09/10/2008 5:49 AM |
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| Our Bylaws clearly state reasonable accommodations have to be allowed for disabled/handicapped, however it cannot be at the expense of the association. |
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MaryA1
(Arizona)
Posts:2248
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| 09/10/2008 6:46 AM |
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Posted By CharlesH9 on 09/09/2008 6:46 PM
A reasonable modification/accomodation was requested and denied twice so a complaint was filed with HUD and there is an investigation.
Charles,
Before we can intelligently comment, we must have more info:
1) condo or planned community
2) nature of modification/accommodation
3) Hoa to pay for accommodation or h/o
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CharlesH9
(Michigan)
Posts:80
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| 09/10/2008 1:02 PM |
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| Single family detached HOA. Just wondering if anyone's encountered this before and what their experience was. I didn't have a "specific" question. |
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BrianB
(California)
Posts:1742
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| 09/10/2008 4:14 PM |
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single family detached?
that would be a rarer beast for a disability lawsuit than most other HOA/POA/COA's... It can happen, i assume, but tougher.
WHat type of accomodation could be desired that a board would deny on a single family home? A ramp outside, possibly? A physical therapy set in the back yard, or something to do with a pool or spa?
I am just curious... speculating. |
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MaryA1
(Arizona)
Posts:2248
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| 09/10/2008 7:26 PM |
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Posted By CharlesH9 on 09/10/2008 1:02 PM
Single family detached HOA. Just wondering if anyone's encountered this before and what their experience was. I didn't have a "specific" question.
Charles,
No "specific" question? But you said: "A reasonable modification/accomodation was requested and denied twice so a complaint was filed with HUD and there is an investigation."
Exactly what type modification/accommodation and to what?
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NicoleO4
Posts:0
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| 09/10/2008 8:09 PM |
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| Anytime a reasonable request to modify for accomodation of a disability is denied.. be prepped for a lawsuit. It often lands on the person who is filing the disability discrimination lawsuit.. |
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JohnB7
(South Carolina)
Posts:41
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| 09/11/2008 9:09 AM |
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Charles;
You stated "A reasonable modification/accomodation was requested and denied twice......."
Under Federal law you MUST grant a 'reasonable accomodation'.
Denial would be Prima Facia evidence of willful violation ,,,,,,, be prepared to p[ay big time. |
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JosephW
(Michigan)
Posts:764
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| 09/11/2008 9:30 AM |
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Charles,
There have been numerous discrimination cases around the country, involving, children, handicap, racial, etc. There is only one rule for any association to follow if faced with a request for accomodation (reasonable or not) involving health, safety or security issues - get your attorney involved immediately! This is too tricky an area for a board to handle without competent counsel and the fines can be heavy.
Joe |
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Joseph West
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Community Associations Network, LLC
www.CommunityAssociations.net
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1145
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| 09/11/2008 12:52 PM |
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... There is only one rule for any association to follow if faced with a request for accomodation (reasonable or not) involving health, safety or security issues - get your attorney involved immediately!...
Sorry, but I take exception to this. If you have a request and it seems reasonable skip paying the lawyer and grant the request. You do not need to have a lawyer for every little thing under the sun.
Now if you are inclined to simply deny the request, hire an attorney or sock some extra funds back for a lawsuit.
If you think the request is unreasonable, then I would first appoint someone to go and talk with the owner and see if something can be worked out. Talk to them as a concerned person and understand first why they want the change. Then look for the best way to meet their needs and yours. And then try to sell both sides that this is the best of both worlds.
If all that fails, I would certainly get an attorney well versed in disability law involved. That might save both sides a lot of heartache.
The HUD charge will be heard by a United States Administrative Law Judge unless any party to the charge elects to have the case heard in federal district court. If an administrative law judge finds after a hearing that discrimination has occurred, he may award damages to each complainant for actual loss as a result of the discrimination, as well as damages for emotional distress, humiliation, and loss of civil rights. The judge may also order injunctive and other equitable relief to deter further discrimination, as well as payment of attorney fees. In addition to damages payable to the complainant, the judge may impose a civil penalty in order to vindicate the public interest. In the event of an election, a federal district court judge may also award punitive damages to a prevailing complainant.
This is not the place you want to be. Think also of what damage might be done if someone takes this to the local TV station as well. |
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JosephW
(Michigan)
Posts:764
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| 09/11/2008 1:13 PM |
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Sorry Kirk, I disagree. You're relying on the board to determine "reasonable", (and as we've seen on this board, that's sometimes a problem)- what may seem unreasonable to a board, may have already been deemed reasonable by a court somewhere else, which an attorney should be aware of or could find out about faster and easier. There is also a whole pile of issues about costs, maintenance responsibilities, liability, removal if the owner sells, etc. I think its better to get it right the first time. Granting even a reasonable request without considering the side effects to the association is not a good idea.
Take a basic request from a person in a wheelchair that wants a ramp by the front door. Because its a townhouse association, the ramp has to extend on to common areas for a short distance. Now your insurance is involved. There's additional liability for a "trip and fall". What maintenance and appearance standards are you going to set, or are you just going to allow the person to put up an unpainted plywood ramp? Are there minimal standards (codes) that the ramp should meet? Should you require that it be color-matched to the home? Should the person sign something agreeing to the standards, color, maintenance etc.? The request is reasonable - it's in the details where things can get screwed up.
Its not about being reasonable, its about protecting the association, which is the responsiblity of the board.
Joe |
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Joseph West
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Community Associations Network, LLC
www.CommunityAssociations.net
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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DwightT
(Idaho)
Posts:456
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| 09/11/2008 2:10 PM |
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Ah geez. Now you all have me wondering about a home in my neighborhood (single family homes) where a plain, unfinished plywood wheelchair ramp has been installed. No ACC request was submitted for it, and I didn't even think about that since it's obvious that the person it was intended for needs it and it has no safety impacts on the community in general. But now I'm wondering if we should ask them to submit a request for approval (external modifications) and establish some maintenance and appearance guidelines for it so that it doesn't become a community eyesore.
Something to bring up at the next BOD meeting I guess.
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1145
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| 09/11/2008 7:08 PM |
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Joseph,
Wow, so you feel that you should spend money to tell you what is immediately obvious that a request for a wheelchair ramp will be considered reasonable in any competent court of law?? That is simply amazing. The money is better spent on a professional who can ensure that the ramp is built to ADA standards and minimizes trip and fall hazards.
As for other things:
codes to be met - yes, there are codes call your city inspection department.
appearance - you should try to get agreement to meet community standard. If you can't get agreement, then employ the lawyer. (I did say to get one if you can't work the thing out.)
liability - well you carry insurance. In case you don't realize it, denying because of your trip and fall hazard will put you in dangerous ground of paying huge fees for not doing the right thing.
If the board can not think about details, then you really should elect a new one. And I would rather pay an design professional to help with details then a lawyer. At least they will add value to the situation. And by the way, you get insurance for the things it covers. |
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TamaraW
(Ohio)
Posts:180
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| 09/11/2008 8:18 PM |
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Just to chime in here with my little bit of two sense, I believe it is in the Boards best interest to come to conclusion on this without involving a lawyer to do the bidding. I agree money is better spent on other things than this.
As for the insurance part, we live in a single family home dwelling that is in a condo environment. There are common and limited common areas. Homeowners are responsible to carry insurance for their limited common space and the trip fall liability only has to do with the common areas. If this is the same set up as us, then the insurance would/may go up for the individual homeowner and not the association.
I can go into detail about the accommodations we have had to approve. People are generally easy to work with when you work with them. You give them the options and they fall into place. |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1376
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| 09/11/2008 10:34 PM |
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Posted By DwightT on 09/11/2008 2:10 PM
Ah geez. Now you all have me wondering about a home in my neighborhood (single family homes) where a plain, unfinished plywood wheelchair ramp has been installed. No ACC request was submitted for it, and I didn't even think about that since it's obvious that the person it was intended for needs it and it has no safety impacts on the community in general. But now I'm wondering if we should ask them to submit a request for approval (external modifications) and establish some maintenance and appearance guidelines for it so that it doesn't become a community eyesore.
Something to bring up at the next BOD meeting I guess.
Dwight this might be of help and while it mainly deals with apartments and condos it does address wheelchair ramps and what can and cannot be required.
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/housing/fairhousing/reasonable_modifications_mar08.pdf
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1145
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| 09/12/2008 8:14 AM |
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| Great post Glen. |
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CharlesH9
(Michigan)
Posts:80
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| 09/12/2008 8:41 AM |
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| Actually this document applies to single family HOA's too as in our case. HUD said they had juristiction over the complaint that was filed. |
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TamaraW
(Ohio)
Posts:180
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| 09/12/2008 8:45 AM |
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| Charles - so what did you deny? This may help us all in understanding your situation and/or situations we may be presented with. |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1376
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| 09/12/2008 10:20 AM |
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Tamara, I don't believe Charles is on the BOD, he has a friend in the HOA whose child has autism and has been asking for accommodation for the fence in her yard.
http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/45556/Default.aspx
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TamaraW
(Ohio)
Posts:180
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| 09/12/2008 10:41 AM |
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| OK, thanks. So this is complicated compared to what we have been faced to approve. I understand the chain link fence, would the family just agree to comply with the fencing you allow in the decs/bylaws and make the space smaller, like don't fence in the whole yard, just a portion of it. Like if their yard is 24feetx24feet - agree to fence in 12feetx24? |
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TamaraW
(Ohio)
Posts:180
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| 09/12/2008 10:43 AM |
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| This would be more cost friendly for them, and still be visually acceptable to what your community standards are while allowing the child to enjoy his yard. |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1145
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| 09/12/2008 10:43 AM |
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The best advice I can give you is to hire a lawyer. Quite honestly, I am to the point where you will get my less reserved response.
If your organization denied an application to put in a rail or ramp because you didn't think it fit the looks of your neighborhood then your organization deserves to be heavily fined. Just maybe one day such fines will get the attention of people and head them down the right track. I will also say that I would start a recall petition for all members who voted against the accommodation/modification.
This is a hot button issue. And quite frankly entirely too much discrimination takes place. And in a single family residence what is reasonable should be interpreted quite liberally. And the money you spend defending yourself could have been used to screen whatever was requested. At least then it would have benefited the neighborhood.
It does not cease to amaze me how people think they can wiggle out of doing the right thing. And that is what the laws are about. When I hear concern about an insurance claim because of someone tripping I want to puke in the person's shoes. That is what insurance is for. And quite honestly a well designed ramp is less likely to be involved then the stairs it goes around. And it is certainly less of an issue then the liability for a chair being carted up steps with a person in it.
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:2178
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| 09/12/2008 11:58 AM |
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Google: "housing discrimination laws" and you will get info on:
Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973
Section 504 prohibits discrimination based on disability in any program or activity receiving federal financial assistance.
Architectural Barriers Act of 1968
The Architectural Barriers Act requires that buildings and facilities designed, constructed, altered, or leased with certain federal funds after September 1969 must be accessible to and useable by handicapped persons.
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CharlesH9
(Michigan)
Posts:80
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| 09/12/2008 5:38 PM |
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| The community standards are another source of contention. The fencing material is allowed, the BOD just doesn't like that kind and wants it changed. So a couple of issues are going on here. I heard the HOA attorney asked HUD for a concilliation meeting. |
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