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StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

06/17/2008 5:31 PM
2.1 Parking. Parking any vehicles on public or private streets or thoroughfares or parking of commercial vehicles or equipment, mobile homes, recreational vehicles, golf carts, boats and other watercraft, trailers, stored vehicles or inoperable vehicles in places other than enclosed garages; provided, construction, service and delivery vehicles shall be exempt from this provision for such a period of times as is reasonably necessary to provide service or make a delivery to a Lot or the Common Area. No Owner, leasee, tenant or occupant of a Lot, including all individuals who reside with such Owner, leasee or occupant on the Lot, shall park, keep, or store any vehicle on any Lot which is visible from any street or neighboring Lot other than a passenger vehicle or pick-up truck and then only if parked on the driveway for a period not exceeding forty-eight (48) consecutive hours. I read it as commercial vehicles other than to make a delivery are prohibited within the community. Any thoughts other than that?

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1742

06/17/2008 5:54 PM
Posted By StevenW3 on 06/17/2008 5:31 PM 2.1 Parking. Parking any vehicles on public or private streets or thoroughfares or parking of commercial vehicles or equipment, mobile homes, recreational vehicles, golf carts, boats and other watercraft, trailers, stored vehicles or inoperable vehicles in places other than enclosed garages; provided, construction, service and delivery vehicles shall be exempt from this provision for such a period of times as is reasonably necessary to provide service or make a delivery to a Lot or the Common Area. No Owner, leasee, tenant or occupant of a Lot, including all individuals who reside with such Owner, leasee or occupant on the Lot, shall park, keep, or store any vehicle on any Lot which is visible from any street or neighboring Lot other than a passenger vehicle or pick-up truck and then only if parked on the driveway for a period not exceeding forty-eight (48) consecutive hours. I read it as commercial vehicles other than to make a delivery are prohibited within the community. Any thoughts other than that? not at all how i see it. section 2.1 is missing a word, it seems, before, in the middle, or after the section. it really isn't a sentence as written. i read that you can have all the commercial vehicles you want, but they and every other vehicle must be parked in garages. no parking in driveways, no parking on streets, no parking in the backyard behind the fence. garage or nothing, for all vehicles. then i read that you CAN have some vehicles in driveways for up to 48 hours.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2840

06/17/2008 6:03 PM
Steven, This must have been written by the same Internet Lawyer that wrote mine in Florida. What it means is that any of the above vehicles/crafts or whatever may be within the community BUT must be parked inside of the garages or completely out of view from the street or neighboring lot. "in places other than enclosed garages; provided, " and " other than a passenger vehicle or pick-up truck and then only if parked on the driveway for a period not exceeding forty-eight (48) consecutive hours. You are required to use your garages, no ifs ands or buts.

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

06/17/2008 6:05 PM
thanks Brian...I took it verbatim out of our Use restrictions. Our Board interprets this paragraph to say that commercial vehicles can be parked in driveways as long as it doesn't exceed 48 hours which I believe is totally incorrect.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2840

06/17/2008 6:10 PM
Brian, If you all remember, my association went to court on parking of a personal pick-up truck in the driveway so I am familiar with this subject. The sentence of "than a passenger vehicle or pick-up truck and then only if parked on the driveway for a period not exceeding forty-eight (48) consecutive hours. " This is referring to a personal vehicle, aka pickup, not a commercial vehicle. Our Judge said that this was poorly written but the intent is to require all vehicles to be parked within the garages.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2840

06/17/2008 6:14 PM
Steven, You did interpret it correctly and your Board did not. It does not allow any commercial vehicle to be parked in the driveway for 48 hours, only passenger and pickups. The word," personal" should have preceeded the pickup wording

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

06/17/2008 6:37 PM
well I may be correct but the Board will not change their opinion and is adamant about it. Besides were a working class neighborhood you can bend the rules... If I could I'd bring a suit against the Board but I think that would be pricey at the very least and would it be worth it, I'm already alienated within the neighborhood because I want the covenants/restrictions enforced. Thanks for the input you've been a big help...

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2154

06/17/2008 7:18 PM
Steven, I am probably out of bounds here, but, if this parking rule is not part of your recorded covenants, a simple resolution by the board can re-state what the requirements are and If so, break it down by 1, 2, 3, etc. To me the entire paragraph is a another law written by too many lawyers or possibly has been changed from time to time to clarify something and ends up clouding something else. But, the battle of who prevails in the differences of interpretation still looms not matter how you cut it. Probably the simpler the more acceptable by more people. The position of finding you are at different poles with the board, albeit not something to attempt to accomplish, we all have experienced much the same. Just remember, you are in this for the long haul, pick you battles and nip at their heels with facts and in the long run, you can look back and say, "I had a hand is making this or that better, and I ain't finished yet". As you can see, I believe change and improvement is built as much on dissent as being a team player.

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

06/17/2008 7:51 PM
the paragraph is recorded as part of the Use restrictions in our Declaration. If this were the only thing that the Board were doing wrong, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it but it's endemic in everything the Board does from spending money to covenant/restriction enforcement (or should I say lack thereof). Trying to change the opinion of those running the Board is beyond hope. In their minds they are correct and will NOT entertain any decent or questioning their interpretation. Unfortunately my morals and ethics are at odds with their actions.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1742

06/17/2008 7:54 PM
parking of commercial vehicles must be inside a garage. pick up trucks can be parked in driveways but for no more than 48 hours in a row. Lucky you aren't in california, where all pick up trucks are commercial vehicles!

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2154

06/17/2008 8:10 PM
Steven, I know my repky here will not change your position a wit. After 18 years of mnore or less what you discribe and acting in much the same manner as you and finding myself in the same position, and not giving up, 2008 is going to be a bellweather year for our society. Closed Regular Board Meetings.......gone. Website..................up an running and productive Volunteers...............picking up steam Communication............66 2/3 of the board, next year 100 % Unhappy people.............. a few plus manager (i suspect) Happy people ............... more than unhappy. And a lot of little nice remarks being spread around. So, hang in there and (another thread) keep niping at their heels with fact and most important, know your subject (association and it laws). You will find a large contingent of people running these places know next to nothing about what makes them tick, associations are strange animals.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1145

06/17/2008 10:02 PM
Sounds like it is time to start talking with your neighbors. And come annual meeting time, you should collect proxies. You might be surprised at how much impact you can have for a little bit of work. Few associations have a high turnout at the meetings. A few afternoons of knocking on doors and you will have a sizable chunk of voting power. Also, those who don't sign a proxy to you are likely to remember that you want to see good things for the neighborhood. I would say though that your rules should be amended. Rather then start cracking down should you get elected, you might want to look into amending your documents. Again, it will come down to getting proxies signed.

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:2178

06/18/2008 5:38 AM
2.1 Parking. Parking any vehicles on public or private streets or thoroughfares or parking of commercial vehicles or equipment, mobile homes, recreational vehicles, golf carts, boats and other watercraft, trailers, stored vehicles or inoperable vehicles in places other than enclosed garages; WHERE'S THE VERB? OR THE WORD "NO" SHOULD BE THE FIRST WORD, or "IS PROHIBITED" at the end. Basically says ALL VEHICLES MUST BE IN GARAGES. provided, construction, service and delivery vehicles shall be exempt from this provision for such a period of times as is reasonably necessary to provide service or make a delivery to a Lot or the Common Area. DELIVERY TRUCKS ARE OK TO PARK for a REASONABLY NECESSARY TIME to do their job. No Owner, leasee, tenant or occupant of a Lot, including all individuals who reside with such Owner, leasee or occupant on the Lot, shall park, keep, or store any vehicle on any Lot which is visible from any street or neighboring Lot OTHER THAN a passenger vehicle or pick-up truck AND THEN only if parked on the driveway for a period not exceeding forty-eight (48) consecutive hours. PICKPS AND CARS ARE ALLOWED TO BE PARKED, KEPT OR STORED WHERE IT IS VISIBLE, BUT ONLY UP TO 48 HOURS. NOTE: I don't know if parking a pick-up EVERY DAY in the driveway would be in the same category as "up to 48 consecutive hours" I think they are talking about single, one-time periods, not chronic parking.

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:590

06/18/2008 6:53 AM
I think this might be another case of pulling a section out of context. When we try to be brief, we sometimes have a tendency to do that without realizing it. The paragraph quoted is 2.1. To me, that implies that it may be a paragraph that is subsidiary to a more major paragraph, maybe 2 or 2.0? If that's the case, maybe the "missing" word (or words) might be in the major paragraph that precedes 2.1. It seems that whenever I’ve seen this happen in this forum, and we finally do get all of the relevent text, many times it changes the meaning entirely. For example, the "main" paragraph that precedes 2.1 could say something like, "The following actions are prohibited" and then go on to list the prohibited actions is the following paragraphs, such as 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, etc. Just an observation.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2248

06/18/2008 8:19 AM
Posted By StevenW3 on 06/17/2008 5:31 PM 2.1 Parking. Parking any vehicles on public or private streets or thoroughfares or parking of commercial vehicles or equipment, mobile homes, recreational vehicles, golf carts, boats and other watercraft, trailers, stored vehicles or inoperable vehicles in places other than enclosed garages; provided, construction, service and delivery vehicles shall be exempt from this provision for such a period of times as is reasonably necessary to provide service or make a delivery to a Lot or the Common Area. No Owner, leasee, tenant or occupant of a Lot, including all individuals who reside with such Owner, leasee or occupant on the Lot, shall park, keep, or store any vehicle on any Lot which is visible from any street or neighboring Lot other than a passenger vehicle or pick-up truck and then only if parked on the driveway for a period not exceeding forty-eight (48) consecutive hours. I read it as commercial vehicles other than to make a delivery are prohibited within the community. Any thoughts other than that? Stephen, OKay, for what it's worth, here's my interpretation: 1) no vehicle can be parked on a public or private street, and 2) commercial vehicles or equip an mobile homes, etc can only be parked in an enclosed garage, and 3) delivery vehicles that are making deliveries are exempt, and 4) no vehicle which can be seen from the street or a neighboring lot can be kept, parked or stored on a lot, and 5) only a passenger vehicle or p/u can be parked on the driveway, but only for 48 consecutive hrs or less 6) the rule applies to all owners and others living with the owner and leasee's or occupants of the home With regard to #4, if there is a wall around your property you can park or store a vehicle behind it if it cannot be seen above the wall. The key phrase of that restriction is "can be seen". Commercial vehicles are not prohibited in the community. They are allowed as long as they are parked in the garage. I suppose you could also park it behind the wall as long as it couldn't be seen. Note that #4 above says "no vehicle" which could also mean a commercial vehicle.

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

06/18/2008 1:23 PM
2. Restrictions. The following activities are "prohibited" at Sara Pointe unless expressly authoriz by and then subject to such conditions as may be imposed by, the Board:

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

06/18/2008 1:23 PM
"authorized"...fat fingers again...

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:590

06/18/2008 1:32 PM
Posted By StevenW3 on 06/18/2008 1:23 PM 2. Restrictions. The following activities are "prohibited" at Sara Pointe unless expressly authoriz by and then subject to such conditions as may be imposed by, the Board: Thanks, Steven. It's as I suspected in my previous post. There are the "missing words". Just combine 2. with 2.1 and you've got it.

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:2178

06/18/2008 4:50 PM
Geez, Stephen - those words change the ENTIRE meaning. The Board has the power to make variances to anything that follows!!

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2248

06/18/2008 6:34 PM
Wow, this is a new one for me. That is giving the board the authority to change the CCRs! Guess I'll have to amend my response by adding the following: "unless amended at the whim of the BOD."

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

06/18/2008 6:35 PM
Posted By SusanW1 on 06/18/2008 4:50 PM Geez, Stephen - those words change the ENTIRE meaning. The Board has the power to make variances to anything that follows!! I don't know how the heck I missed that one...looks like they can do as they please...and will... time to move....these people will certainly have a hard time when someone wants something else in the neighborhood and then get told no because they aren't cozy with them or they think that particular item doesn't fit their agenda...who writes these things so arbitrary anyway?? where's the frown icon...

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2248

06/18/2008 6:37 PM
Stephen, Here's a frown: :-(

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2154

06/18/2008 7:41 PM
Hold on a minute folks. Does all this conform to State Statute corporation requirements? Does it meet the test that all actions by the board has to support the Master Deed and Declaration. I suspect we have forged ahead to a conclusion that may are may nor be supported by the documents. Has this clause ever been amemded? Is it recorded as a valid amemdment? It could be as simple as a typo somewhere. I can't see a part of a chapter or clause or rule or whatever this is, granting dictorial powers to the Board. If there is intent by the board to manipulate the documents so they can act irresponsible they better get the legal eagles to run this by the courts. All intent of any action by the governing body has to meet the test, "Is this action good for the associations holdings, whatever they are." In an Hoa maybe not so much a portion of the whole, in a condo the real property (runs with the land forever)can be a large portion of the whole. You can not legally write laws that insure the distruction of the whole. After all, nearly all Boards have a wide lattitude to act for the good of the whole if in the boards opinion it can support the requirements. It never says they can do what they want, there are always constraints that require actions be legal and justified by the law or laws.

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

06/18/2008 7:56 PM
Robert good question but our board is not incorporated to my knowledge. We have no lawyer except the board members who think they are and no management company.

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:590

06/19/2008 1:50 AM
Hold on folks. Don't get too excited. We haven't seen the entire document; only a couple of pieces. With what we've seen so far, the board can't do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING it wants. So far we've only see paragraph 2 (the introductory paragraph) and paragraph 2.1 which pertains to parking. So, all we can determine from what we've seen is that there are certain prohibitions on parking and that the board can make variances to those. We don't know what paragraphs 2.2, 2.3, 2.4, etc. say (assuming there are such pargraphs), nor do we know how many such paragraphs there are. We also don't know what the rest of the document says, so anything else is speculation. The problem I see with such a loosey-goosey couple of paragraphs is that with one board there may be these variances to the parking prohibitions, but with the next board there may be a different set of variances to the parking prohibitions, and so on.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2154

06/19/2008 3:22 AM
Steven, That being the case, I guess that is exactly what you can expect in regard to policy decisions. And a wonderful suggestion would be for you and a couple of right thinking folks to decide you all can make the situation better, and start the process. I can not tell you how very difficult it is, you wouldn't believe me, nor can I explain how great it is when you see your efforts come together, and some owner you didn't know exists says, "You guys/gals are doing a great job and I want to thank you."

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2248

06/19/2008 7:12 AM
Bruce, Are you alluding that Stephen should post the whole set of bylaws? If it's as you think it might be, these may qualify as the craziest set of bylaws ever written. One section says one thing only to be contradicted by the next and so on! Of course, like I always say, "never say never". Just when you think you've seen it all, along comes something even more bizarre.

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:590

06/19/2008 7:41 AM
Mary, Ain't that the truth! No, I'm not really suggesting he post the entire set of bylaws, but, isn't it interesting what turns up when you dig a little deeper?

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

06/19/2008 2:26 PM
well they are too big to upload but if you'd like to take a look at them (if you've got extra time on your hands...lol)...at least I think the links work... http://members.cox.net/btlfan64/hoa1.pdf http://members.cox.net/btlfan64/hoa-2.pdf

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

06/19/2008 2:27 PM
ooops links don't work...gotta find out how to get there and I'll repost...

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