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ReneeD
(Illinois)

Posts:134

06/10/2008 2:14 PM
This is an Illinois HOA and our association is handled by a property management firm. Do homeowners have a right to request a copy of the management contract signed by current board members. Are homeowners legally bound to this contract as well? Also, we are being told that since our ccr's are legally binding documents we can only view and, if a homeowner wants a printed copy we must submit in writing to the property management for one. I'm sure this is not done for free. This doesn't sound right to me. Also, just wondering if a management company raises their fees (home sales) are they obligated to communicate this to homeowners as well? Thanks. -ReneeD

GloriaM
(North Carolina)

Posts:778

06/10/2008 2:43 PM
Rene: I am not sure about your state laws but a vendors contract is not one of the documents that are open to Owners perusal. The Board of Directors are elected to perform this function for the membership, therefore they are bound to get bids, negotiate the best value for the HOA's dollar. The HOA is legally bound to any contract they enter into be it landscaper, insurance, or pool management. If an HOA (board members) wanted to terminate any vendor they would have to do so according to their termination fee. As for the CCR's an MC may charge for the copying of the documents for an Owner. We have our communities documents electronic so we can email their CCR's to any Owner. Your last statement as to only viewing doesn't make any sense, your CCR's can and should be giving at the time of closing to all Owners. Sounds like you are having a bit of a conflict with your MC?

Dr. Gloria J. Martinez, CFO Official HOATalk.com Sponsor Author of "A Guide to Community Living" Faith Management Services, LLC (North Carolina) (704) 799-3791 www.FaithManagementServices.com *See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1362

06/10/2008 2:50 PM
Rene as Gloria stated there are copying charges when you get something like the Declarations and By-Laws from the MC. However if you go to your County Recorders website you can often view and print the documents from there. Just put your Associations name in the search block on the CR's website and all of the documents relating to your Association and your neighbors should pop up.

GloriaM
(North Carolina)

Posts:778

06/10/2008 2:54 PM
Oops, I meant termination clause!

Dr. Gloria J. Martinez, CFO Official HOATalk.com Sponsor Author of "A Guide to Community Living" Faith Management Services, LLC (North Carolina) (704) 799-3791 www.FaithManagementServices.com *See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal

KarenS11
(Florida)

Posts:145

06/10/2008 3:33 PM
All documents are open to owners in Florida, with the exception of ongoing legal matters. There is a per page copy charge. We have posted the contract with our lawn service on the website, so that residents know what they should be doing and what they are not responsible for maintaining. I did white-out the contract amount. They can get that by request. As for copies of the CCRs, we charge $10 for a copy, but have recently posted them on our website so that any owner can view/print them. I WANT folks to have these docs. It increases compliance.

EllenS1
(Florida)

Posts:350

06/10/2008 4:55 PM
Renee, You have every right to examine the contract. Ownwers are bound by their board's decision. You will probably be charged for copies of the contract. Mangement companies cannot raise their fees without an amendment and a vote from your board.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1110

06/10/2008 7:22 PM
Renee, One thing I would mention is that the management contract does not need to be signed by the current board. I don't know about most contracts, but our contract had an initial one year obligation and then after that we can terminate it with a 30 day notice. The exception (which in our case had no effect) would have been that if we transitioned the contract would immediately become eligible for termination with a 30 day notice. In most states you have a right to examine any contract to which your HOA is bound. And as others have said, they have a right to charge you for copying. In our HOA's case, there is a charge for all such copies made, though those for board members are paid by the association. I suspect this is pretty normal as it is assumed that the reason a board member asks is in relation to board business. (All of our members received a binder with this information at our first meeting.) You can also view the CC&Rs as well as the governing documents through your county records. Such items are required to be recorded to have any effect. Before paying for a copy I would first check your closing papers. Again, in many areas your title company is required to provide you with a copy of any "encumbrances" upon the property. At the very least they are required to inform you of them and the best way to cover themselves is to provide a copy of them. Otherwise they could get drug into a legal fight for not properly informing you. (And that is part of why houses are closed by a title company. They are responsible for making all the ducks line up.) I would encourage you to read through not only the CC&Rs, but also the governing documents of your association. Find out if you are under owner control or declarant (developer) control. Learn when your homeowners gain control. Also, in most cases you have a right to know who is on the board of directors and to attend the meetings. (Though you may find they are pretty boring as if under developer control they likely just agree with the manager and move on.) Good luck in your quest for knowledge. jsut be aware that it is the first step to becoming a board member.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/11/2008 8:13 AM
Posted By GloriaM on 06/10/2008 2:43 PM Rene: I am not sure about your state laws but a vendors contract is not one of the documents that are open to Owners perusal. The Board of Directors are elected to perform this function for the membership, therefore they are bound to get bids, negotiate the best value for the HOA's dollar. The HOA is legally bound to any contract they enter into be it landscaper, insurance, or pool management. If an HOA (board members) wanted to terminate any vendor they would have to do so according to their termination fee. As for the CCR's an MC may charge for the copying of the documents for an Owner. We have our communities documents electronic so we can email their CCR's to any Owner. Your last statement as to only viewing doesn't make any sense, your CCR's can and should be giving at the time of closing to all Owners. Sounds like you are having a bit of a conflict with your MC? Gloria are you sure on this? I don't know either, but in working with a state agency any contracts we perform are subject to open records requests by the general public. I know HOA's are different, but I would think as members of your association you would have access to contracts signed by your BOD's.

ReneeD
(Illinois)

Posts:134

06/11/2008 3:02 PM
No files exist for our association in their records. Does this mean none of our documents are legally binding? (ha-ha) -ReneeD

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1110

06/11/2008 6:19 PM
Well, if there are no recorded documents, then they don't have a right of enforcement. And the management company not having a copy of such documents is extremely troubling. If you have something other then a condo, then I would start with a look at your property survey. That should list any and all encumbering documents. Failing that, contact your title company. They had to do a search for such documents before title insurance could be issued. Failing all of that, then you will need to pay for a title search (again). Call a (different) title company and they can assist you (for a fee). If a title company can not find any encumbering documents then the HOA has no authority over you. Further, the current owner would have to permit any encumbrance from CC&Rs. So at that point, you would have very strong ground to stand on in asserting your independence from the HOA (and its management company).

GloriaM
(North Carolina)

Posts:778

06/12/2008 3:01 PM
BradP: As I stated in my post I was not sure of her state laws, but am I sure here in NC, the answer is yes. Already had this issue examined by attorney's and contracts are not one of those documents opened to membership perusal. Doesn't mean the board can't show them.

Dr. Gloria J. Martinez, CFO Official HOATalk.com Sponsor Author of "A Guide to Community Living" Faith Management Services, LLC (North Carolina) (704) 799-3791 www.FaithManagementServices.com *See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal

ReneeD
(Illinois)

Posts:134

06/13/2008 10:24 AM
I've just found out only our Declaration and various Amendments are in fact recorded. It states in our ByLaws that they are 'attached as Exhibit D but the County Recorder has no record of of ByLaws or subsequent Amendments. Would this mean anything mentioned in our Bylaws is unenforceable? -ReneeD

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/13/2008 1:13 PM
Posted By GloriaM on 06/12/2008 3:01 PM BradP: As I stated in my post I was not sure of her state laws, but am I sure here in NC, the answer is yes. Already had this issue examined by attorney's and contracts are not one of those documents opened to membership perusal. Doesn't mean the board can't show them. Thanks...

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