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MD
(California)

Posts:27

06/15/2008 7:04 PM
Written or any words running loose have always presented a challenge to those bent on ruling others. The Bill of Rights provides freedom of speech for Americans. However, I think freedoms of any kind come with responsibility. In the context of HOAs, I think everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. Obviously, some HOAs are run better than other HOAs. I don't think anyone questions the altruistic, caring motives of those who are elected to an HOA board of directors or those who choose to serve on committees. However, there are people whose motives are not as pure. I started a new thread because I am disturbed by a few posts regarding the AHRC Web site. I did not agree with everything posted on the site. I do agree much of what was posted was opinion. That is well within the rights of the posters and site owner. Controversy usually spurs some kind of action. I think it's important to spur positive action. Lobbing verbal tennis balls back and forth does not do much to educate or advocate. From the many posts I've read on this site, there is demand for education as evidenced by the back and forth Q&A. I think, too, there is a need for advocacy as evidence by those who perhaps need encouragement to enforce his/her rights or volunteer in his/her HOA. I volunteer in my community. I collected 94 proxies for the last annual meeting and elected a new board. Unfortunately the new board treats the law as optional and the same problems exist. I write a monthly newsletter and was writing my HOA's newsletter, a task I also did at my prior HOA. I recruited 19 volunteers for committees at my last association. Each volunteer gave time to provide valuable services to the HOA. When I collected proxies this past year, I recruited volunteers for proxy collection and committees. Unfortunately, the new board acts as much of a clique as the last board. What am I going to do? I collected proxies and the board will be recalled. I am recruiting replacement board members. Sometimes, though, what I described is not enough. I have a pending suit against my HOA regarding association records. The HOA ignored its own policies concerning dispute resolution, refusing to sit down and work out the issues with me. The management company breaks so many laws it is ridiculous and the board refuses to manage the vendor. The board gives itself extra privileges, the most recent of which is a board member's children sliding under an emergency access fence for ingress/egress and destroying common area landscape. I am expected to assume responsibility for the board member's children while the children are in common areas. This is ridiculous but the board refuses to act, only saying there is "a fix in the works." As I said, there are no easy answers but education and advocacy go a long way. Like anything in life, there is good and bad. I don't think anyone has the right to demand someone post only good or bad about any topic. It's obvious minds will not be changed easily. In my case, lack of respect is one of the reasons the suit remains pending. In California, I think that's why the court system builds so many "checks" to encourage alternate dispute resolution, recognizing the emotional nature of conflicts. I have a motto by which I try to live: Believe. Create. Encourage. Inspire. I can honestly say I do this regularly in my life. HOAs have a responsibility to act in the best interests of the corporation. That means "equal servitude." Finally, if you choose to exercise your right of free speech with regard to your HOA, please be informed and knowledgeable about your HOA's governing documents (CC&Rs, bylaws, rules and regulations, architectural standards) and state laws. Go to board and membership meetings. If you cannot attend those meetings, obtain copies of the minutes to stay informed. Recent changes in California HOA law mandate greater HOA transparency. Unless it concerns litigation, enforcement or otherwise protected by privilege, members are entitled to copy and inspect all association records. I think legislatures everywhere create Draconian law when there is a lot of abuse. I think in California that has unfortunately been true. Thank you for your kind attention reading this. I think everyone can learn from positive and negative information about HOAs. I am happy to share more details about my experience. Please email me at hautecouture1986@gmail.com. Kind regards-Emma

CaroleJ
(Georgia)

Posts:32

06/16/2008 5:08 PM
Thanks for this, Emma. As a general philosophy, information as a public good is usually viewed as a good thing. But when information intersects with an emotional issue, it can be viewed as threatening with efforts made to suppress it. In the case of this forum where there is a high degree of knowledge on a specific issue, most have responded with civility to information they disagree with without attempting to suppress it. The one attempt to suppress that I witnessed within the last several days did not have any apparent influence, and for that I am grateful. As for HOAs, advocates may believe that all is well with things as they stand now and anyone who disagrees should have known better before they moved in or move along, now that they do know. In the 'should have known better' issue, the advocates may be technically correct but the 'should have known' problems are issues that even the courts cannot agree on. And in a country where only 2 in 10 of the citizens know there are 100 senators in congress, 'should have known' by reading dense by-laws is highly unlikely. The 'move now' answer becomes problematic, especially in some states like California and Florida, which are in the top five of most populated states and have the most HOAs. So while I can respect the HOA advocates that believe those two answers will solve the many conflicts that stem from HOAs, I believe that new information and consideration of the new research that is being conducted and analyzed will perhaps give us better answers for more people.

MD
(California)

Posts:27

06/16/2008 8:06 PM
You articulated what I did not say very well in my post. When I say advocate, I mean members getting involved in their HOAs and educating other members. People have different levels of education and understanding. One of the most effective things I did was create a "plain English" brochure explaining the difference between CC&Rs, bylaws, articles of incorporation and rules/regulations/guidelines. I also updated rules and regulations in plain English because the prior rules and regulations were so poorly written and difficult to understand. I am incredulous at the news story only two in ten know there are 100 senators in Congress. I completely agree new information and research will hopefully give better answers for more people. I'm from the Midwest. HOAs are not as common there. When I moved to California, my husband and I thought the concept of an HOA was a good idea. That association experienced the downside of construction defect litigation -- a California Supreme Court decision not allowing HOAs to collect for construction defects unless damage was sustained. At this HOA, buildings did not have fire breaks. Because a building did not burn down, the HOA could not recover money to add fire breaks. In California, the building inspector cannot be sued. The construction defect litigation allowed the HOA to repair the roofs and a few other things. When we moved there, we reviewed the pleadings and correspondence. We also consulted an attorney. The lawsuit was not frivolous. I won't get into the details but we had no reason to believe the suit would be resolved and all defects repaired. The unit we purchased had no construction defect issues. The board activity at this time was tumultuous. We realized lay people without business experience were managing the affairs of a multi-million dollar corporation. Anyway, the point I am making is Carole makes an excellent point about better answers have to be there. Thanks, Carole, for your well-articulated words. Emma

AnnaD2
(Florida)

Posts:319

06/17/2008 4:52 AM
I've read these posts and I have to agree you both bring up some very important points. We have a "Freedom of Speech" issue going on right now. Our Board allows anyone who is a resident of our community to speak on agenda items. At the last meeting an owner told a 14-year resident that he could not speak because he's not on the deed. The board reminded the owner that we DO allow them to speak; they are residents of the community and their input is respected. The owner AGAIN told that person to "become an owner" to be able to speak. The board does not feel it's their business why a couple decides to have only only name on a deed. The person who spoke is responsible for a mortgage and maintenances fees, just like everyone else. The person who "spoke" is extremely upset. He has served on various committees throughout the years and is a friendly, helpful part of our community. So yes, he feels HIS freedom of speech rights have been violated. Any thoughts?

DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:443

06/17/2008 7:02 AM
Anna - The board chair should inform the person who is trying to silence the resident that he is out of order, that any comments should be directed to the chair, and the chair is the one to decide who is entitled to speak and when. If that person continues to try to silence the resident, then the chair can ask him to leave.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1731

06/17/2008 1:56 PM
Posted By AnnaD2 on 06/17/2008 4:52 AM I've read these posts and I have to agree you both bring up some very important points. We have a "Freedom of Speech" issue going on right now. Our Board allows anyone who is a resident of our community to speak on agenda items. At the last meeting an owner told a 14-year resident that he could not speak because he's not on the deed. The board reminded the owner that we DO allow them to speak; they are residents of the community and their input is respected. The owner AGAIN told that person to "become an owner" to be able to speak. The board does not feel it's their business why a couple decides to have only only name on a deed. The person who spoke is responsible for a mortgage and maintenances fees, just like everyone else. The person who "spoke" is extremely upset. He has served on various committees throughout the years and is a friendly, helpful part of our community. So yes, he feels HIS freedom of speech rights have been violated. Any thoughts? First, it is a business meeting, and the bill of rights/first amendment is meaningless. the By-laws tend to rule and govern how business is conducted. That being said, an OWNER has no more right to protest a non-owner speaking than a non-owner has the right to protest an owner speaking: the right to speak is granted by the chairman, through the agenda, period. It is up to the chair to allow, control, etc. the meeting, who speaks, the agenda, the time, etc..

CaroleJ
(Georgia)

Posts:32

06/17/2008 7:32 PM
Anna, what you have is a good instance where knowing the by-laws and their lingo could have by-lawed your wayward and misguided owner down. In our by-laws the answer to who is an owner is found under the section relating to the composition of the Board: "The directors shall be Owners of Units or spouses or cohabitants of such Owners..." And that is aside from the points that Dwight and Brian made. I thought Emma had a good approach to furthering understanding of the usually un-understandable self-government documents that control in community associations. "One of the most effective things I did was create a "plain English" brochure explaining the difference between CC&Rs, bylaws, articles of incorporation and rules/regulations/guidelines. I also updated rules and regulations in plain English because the prior rules and regulations were so poorly written and difficult to understand." In your case, you might want to add a touch of Robert's Rules. Maybe the owner who was spouting off about becoming an owner before speaking should be approached about tackling the job. It will shut that owner up for a year or two and maybe produce something that is helpful to boot. :-)

CharleneF
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:1

07/12/2008 7:33 AM
Hi Emma I am very interested in your "plain English" brochure. Is there a chance of you sending me a copy via email? (precchar@worldnet.att.net) Thanks Char

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