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NicoleO4

Posts:0

06/16/2008 12:52 PM
Hello all, I really appreciate all your information and really have found some great advice here! Our HOA atty has sent out their little monthly email with questions and answers ect. This months focus was pools and liability. There was mention of asking to pass a no alcohol by the pool rule! I myself feel that perhaps that is going a bit too far, and I refuse to go and check cups and pitchers for alcohol. It has NOT been an issue before and I am wondering if the board can actually enforce this? Our rules only ask that appropriate plastic ware be utilized. no glass.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1731

06/16/2008 1:43 PM
can they enforce this? yes, they can if it is put into the rules properly. in fact, once it is made into a rule, the board MUST enforce it fairly and properly.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/16/2008 2:05 PM
Nicole: I would have your board check with your insurance company to see if there is any potential savings with having such a rule. I think an important thing to remember is way too often in life things aren't an issue (or what we perceive to be one) until it is too late. Can it be enforced, absolutely, the board has the authority to make rules and regs for your common areas. If it is made a rule it should be enforced.

PatrickH
(California)

Posts:197

06/16/2008 2:46 PM
Hi Nicole, My HOA has a no alcohol rules covering our entire recreation center, including the pool area. Do people still drink there? I'm sure they do, but they are much more discreet about it and probably consume less than if it was allowed. By having a ban on alcohol, the liability question on their behavior gets turned on them. If they drink alcohol in violation of the rules, then split their head open trying to dive into the Jacuzzi, there's less liability on the HOA's part and more on the individual's part.

NicoleO4

Posts:0

06/16/2008 3:25 PM
I was thinking that if there is a rule in place and it is enforced, if a homeowner chooses to drink booze and hit the hot tub and gets hurt the liability would be on them correct?

NicoleO4

Posts:0

06/16/2008 3:28 PM
The enforcement of such rules. Does that mean a board member would be able to ask them to pop open their cooler for inspection or open thier sports bottles to see what's inside? I myself do not desire to do this.

CaroleJ
(Georgia)

Posts:32

06/16/2008 3:49 PM
Nicole, here is another way of looking at the issue. Before making a rule based on what is apparently one persons desire to ban booze at the pool, the BOD should try to determine the membership's views as a whole on the ban. Imposition of a rule that is not wanted or desired by at least a majority, will guarantee ahead of time compliance and enforcement problems. Also the BOD could find out why this one member wants booze banned, as there may be other ways of fixing the person's problem. And thirdly, if a member of the BOD or even a regular member is posted at the gate to check for compliance on a rule that most deem unfair, that person needs to expect retaliation of some sort. At that point, the BOD will really have some headaches.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1731

06/16/2008 3:51 PM
yes, a board member COULD ask to see/smell/taste the contents of a container. I would suggest that it only be done IF the board member has: received a complaint with some subtantiation behind it or has some reasonable cause to believe that alcohol is being brought in. For instance, i do not believe a board member need be there every moment, inspecting every beverage. I don't even think they need to do random samples. I think that should a member have reason to believe alcohol is being consumed (Empty bottles on the walkway up the path, drunken behavior being exhibited, foaming pale ale beer heads on the koolaid pitcher, the smell of alcohol, the mention of alcohol ("toss me another beer, would you jack?"), etc., then they could check.

NicoleO4

Posts:0

06/16/2008 6:35 PM
Sorry, but I am NOT going to invade someone's drink. That is just plain loooney. No, I am not going to stand at the gate and check thier coolers. I dont' need my car keyed or my front door egged..

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2791

06/16/2008 6:42 PM
Nichole, I would post a "NO GLASS, NO ALCOHOL" and let it go at that. You cannot smell or look at a persons personal drink bottle to see what they are drinking. This is going just a step too far in trying to control peoples behaviors. This is an example of articles that are written about Boards going too far in trying to control it's members.. Now if someone gets unruley or stupid, then that person could be warned or removed from the pool area. People do that even without booze so it just is what some people do in their lives.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1110

06/16/2008 7:34 PM
Nicole, I agree that I wouldn't want to go asking to check people's drinks. It violates the very principles of our nation. Further, I think you should really consider if you like your atty sending out an email that crosses the professional line. It really is none of his business. He is an employee and thus has no business requesting you pass any rule. If he believes it would lower your liability, then he should say so. But outside informing you, he has no business. Further, I think passing a rule that you don't enforce is not sensible. It could actually open you up for a greater liability. If you pass a rule, then don't enforce it the argument that you are responsible for an alcohol related accident. I also agree with the statement about what the neighborhood wants. If there is no problem, then why would you pass a rule? That makes no sense at all. Finally, if you do decide no alcohol, try to word it in a positive manner. "Soft drinks only in the pool area."

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1731

06/16/2008 9:08 PM
Posted By KirkW1 on 06/16/2008 7:34 PM Nicole, I agree that I wouldn't want to go asking to check people's drinks. It violates the very principles of our nation. Those would be the same principles that allow our government to tap our phone lines without a warrant, to invade our bank records without a warrant, to gather lists of the books we read at the library, and the books we buy at the bookstore without any cause? The same principles that allow our executive branch to send military troops into a US Citizen's home to seize the occupants without warrants, court orders, or even criminal charges, and hold them for years without access to lawyers, in a foreign country? The same principles that allow any form of torture, so long as death doesn't occur too often? I know that's off track, but I don't think our country's principles are what you think they are anymore.

NicoleO4

Posts:0

06/16/2008 9:40 PM
I myself do not think that this potential rule will take off. First of all i DO NOT support it. I will not enforce it and I do not want to place myself or anyone else at potential retaliation actions due to the enquiry of beverage an adult may have. OUR board at times forgets..that we ALL own this building.. Not just them

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1361

06/16/2008 10:36 PM
The attorney sent out a newsletter recommending a rule to prohibit alcohol to help negate a HOA's liability if there is an injury and he is now somehow the bad guy. You are free to ignore his advice as you are free to ignore any that is posted here but if you choose to ignore it because it's something you don't like or want to have to enforce or would be unpopular then don't expect your D&O insurance to protect you. When you joined the BOD you assumed the task to do what is right for the Association, not what is popular or easy. This is antidotal but when I was a paramedic almost all of my runs to a pool that involved serious injury also involved alcohol and the injury was usually preceded by the words: "Hey y'all watch this." Or "I bet you can't do this!"

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/17/2008 6:25 AM
Glen: That is a great post...attorney's tend to error on the side of being cautious. However, if someone ever gets hurt an a lawsuit ensues, the fact that the board was advised to not allow alcohol and ignored that advice will come up and won't look good. We all at one time probably liked to endulge in adult beverages, however, it is important to take the welfare of the association into account here first and foremost. Donna's suggestion of posting signage and making homeowners aware of the rule is a good one. You don't need to be the Nazi police and check every cup, if it is posted and a reasonable person should see it and know it then you have covered yourself.

CharlesW1
(Georgia)

Posts:818

06/17/2008 6:46 AM
Posted By NicoleO4 on 06/16/2008 9:40 PM I myself do not think that this potential rule will take off. First of all i DO NOT support it. I will not enforce it and I do not want to place myself or anyone else at potential retaliation actions due to the enquiry of beverage an adult may have. OUR board at times forgets..that we ALL own this building.. Not just them NicoleO4, AS A BOARD MEMBER YOU ARE “RESPONSIBLE” FOR THE ACTIONS OF THOSE “ADULT”. As others have posted you don’t necessary have to inspect coolers, containers or smell their beverage glasses. However, if someone should get injured or damage HOA property, then they should be financial responsible, not the association! Chuck W.

Charles E. Wafer Jr.

PatR
(Florida)

Posts:135

06/17/2008 7:36 AM
The following just went into our newsletter....We now have rats running on the pool deck due to food and drinks, which we don't allow either. It's an "all about me" mentality, but at least we tried. NO ALCOHOL Alcohol and water never mix. Alcohol is involved in frequent water-related injuries and up to half of all water-related deaths. The statistics for teenage guys are particularly scary: One half of all adolescent male drownings are tied to alcohol use. Limiting alcohol consumption is important, as it is one of the most frequently reported contributory factors associated with adolescent and adult drowning. Our association needs to take an active role in preventing accidents, injuries, and providing a safe pool environment for the entire community. Kids can find games and activities at: www.SplashZoneUSA.SplashZoneUSA.com to learn more about safe water behavior. It's great to have summer fun; however, safety is the key. So relax, be responsible, take the plunge, and enjoy the pool!

NicoleO4

Posts:0

06/17/2008 10:26 AM
That is fine. I can support both sides to an extent. BUT HOW DO YOU ENFORCE THIS WITH PEOPLE BRINGING COOLERS, DRINKGS TO THE POOL. I AM NOT INSPECTING THEM.. that is just insane. LOL

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1731

06/17/2008 10:55 AM
Just curious Nicole, how do the board members currently investigate or inspect situations elsewhere in the community that may be violations of the rules? If someone files a complaint about X rule being broken, what does the board currently do?

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1361

06/17/2008 11:05 AM
Nicole you do not have to look in every cooler or smell every drink. If someone is blatantly drinking from a can of beer and you can see it or is impaired then yes you should say something or if you have a lifeguard or pool monitor it could be their responsibility. The purpose of this type of rule is basic CYA. If god forbid some idiot tried to dive in the shallow end and broke his back because he was crocked, it would be difficult to prove the HOA's culpability in the matter if there were signs prohibiting alcohol consumption and/or diving in the pool area. However if the HOA intends just to pay lip service to the rule and knowingly intends to look the other way then it would be better IMO to not have the rule.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/17/2008 11:14 AM
Posted By NicoleO4 on 06/17/2008 10:26 AM That is fine. I can support both sides to an extent. BUT HOW DO YOU ENFORCE THIS WITH PEOPLE BRINGING COOLERS, DRINKGS TO THE POOL. I AM NOT INSPECTING THEM.. that is just insane. LOL Nicole: Why would you have to? There are all kinds of pool regulations and I am sure that you don't enforce them all. A common one is you can't enter a pool with an open cut, and I am quite sure that you don't inspect everyone's body. Post signage, educate your members and leave it at that. If there is a big sign at the entrance of the pool that says NO ALCOHOL and they ignore that they pass the liability from you to them.

EllenS1
(Florida)

Posts:350

06/17/2008 3:06 PM
I'll drink to that. It's not what a person is drinking. It should be about their behavior.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1731

06/17/2008 3:28 PM
Posted By EllenS1 on 06/17/2008 3:06 PM I'll drink to that. It's not what a person is drinking. It should be about their behavior. Nah, ellen: if you start thinking that you should control behavior, rather than all the other things people want to legislate, you would toss out rules about 55+ communities, pets and breed rules, renters versus homeowners, etc.. It's somewhat ingrained to make "types" of things wrong, not actions. Imagine all the paradigms we would have to discard if we followed your advice, and actually banned the actions and behaviors: Renters always have loud parties, owners parties are always quiet visiting children are quieter than children who live in the community motorcycles driven by 30 year olds are louder than motorcycles driven by 60 year olds pit bulls attack people without provocation, cocker spaniels never bite renters trash homes, owners maintain immaculate lawns

EllenS1
(Florida)

Posts:350

06/17/2008 3:37 PM
Posted By BrianB on 06/17/2008 3:28 PM Posted By EllenS1 on 06/17/2008 3:06 PM I'll drink to that. It's not what a person is drinking. It should be about their behavior. Nah, ellen: if you start thinking that you should control behavior, rather than all the other things people want to legislate, you would toss out rules about 55+ communities, pets and breed rules, renters versus homeowners, etc.. It's somewhat ingrained to make "types" of things wrong, not actions. Imagine all the paradigms we would have to discard if we followed your advice, and actually banned the actions and behaviors: Renters always have loud parties, owners parties are always quiet visiting children are quieter than children who live in the community motorcycles driven by 30 year olds are louder than motorcycles driven by 60 year olds pit bulls attack people without provocation, cocker spaniels never bite renters trash homes, owners maintain immaculate lawns I said nothing about age, owners vs. renters, etc. What I meant to say is that if someone wants to drink something with liquor in it at the pool fine but if this person exhibits rowdy and disturbing behavior and infringes on others use of the pool or endangers either their own or others wellbeing something should be done about it.

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:131

06/17/2008 3:57 PM
Posted By NicoleO4 on 06/17/2008 10:26 AM That is fine. I can support both sides to an extent. BUT HOW DO YOU ENFORCE THIS WITH PEOPLE BRINGING COOLERS, DRINKGS TO THE POOL. I AM NOT INSPECTING THEM.. that is just insane. LOL I agree, I wouldn't do it...BUT, I bet there are plenty of people within the association who love playing cop or spy. Utilize their services.

CaroleJ
(Georgia)

Posts:32

06/17/2008 7:05 PM
Nicole, does the Board even know how much this 'liability' coverage will cover and cost? Once you find out, do a quick cost benefit analysis and see how much your HOA needs to save in order to make a rule against something that hasn't happened, and is bound to be unpopular. From a seminar given by CAI, Being Reasonable: "...the community association field has learned that, perhaps, the most important function of a board - and a factor that builds value in a community just as much as the beauty of the landscaping - is the sense of harmony that exists in the community." If it's just the liability issue, what is insurance for if not to cover a potential liability. And aren't CA home values and sales already in the pits? (Tried out some new HTML tags to see if they work. We'll know if they don't.)

DonnaM6
(South Carolina)

Posts:9

06/17/2008 7:10 PM
As a note, we do not allow glass or metal containers, or coolers, and absolutely no alcoholic beverages or cigarettes at our pool. Therefore, if someone gets drunk and injures themselves, it is at their own peril. Donna

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1110

06/17/2008 10:15 PM
First, I stand by my comments that the atty may have crossed the line. His job is to inform you of liability. It is NOT to ask you to pass this or that rule. Second, banning alcohol will not stop stupid alcohol related stunts (even if enforced). The rule would do nothing to prevent a person who is drunk from going to the pool to show off just how stupid drunk they are. And thus, you should report public intoxication. Third, passing a rule you don't intend to enforce is a bad, bad idea. It raises your liability. Yes folks, you can be sued for not enforcing the rules. If Nicole's board passes a no alcohol rule that they choose not to enforce, then they can be successfully sued for a breach in their fiduciary responsibility. The fact they passed a rule is in itself proof that they felt the presence of alcohol to be a problem. And you get one person offended by the presence of alcohol and they just might sue the board to force them to enforce the rules. Forth, contrary to what has been done in the name of anti-terrorism our country still has some principals. The pendulum is already swinging back from the knee jerk reaction that occurred in 2001. It might swing back faster if more people voted instead of simply complaining. Finally, why should the board pass a rule that the community doesn't want? Remember that the only person asking for the rule is some atty who is probably now sipping a drink by the pool of his country club. It was not requested by a single owner. And the board serves for the HOs (not the atty). If there isn't a reason for the rule, then the rule shouldn't be made. And if the atty did not cite some case law, then I would not be inclined to worry much about the concern.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/18/2008 6:23 AM
Kirk: With all due respect my opinion differs from yours 1. IMO the lawyer did not cross the line. Their job is to advise their clients on things that in their opinion are beneficial to the HOA. It was his opinion that to help lower liability a rule like this should be passed. The Board doesn't have to listen to him, but at the same time being advised and ignoring legal advice isn't the smartest move. 2. I would agree to a point...if someone really wants to get drunk and do something stupid they are going to do it regardless of what you do. That is why there are so many DUI's and alcohol related deaths in this country. What it does do is take the person who is on the fence and makes them think twice about things. 3. One thing I haven't been clear on is whether the pool is monitored or not? If it is monitored then if a rule is passed whoever is monitoring the pool needs to enforce the rules. However, if the pool is not monitored then how and why should you enforce it? Post signage and inform homeowners of the rules....if they choose to break it that is there problem. They say ignorance of the law is no excuse, in my opinion it holds true here, igorance of a rule does not push liability off of you and to someone else. It is the boards job to keep the best interest of the association in mind, sometimes that can conflict with what your members want. At the end of the day if the board is exposing the HOA to greater liability and risk just because the members didn't want a rule that is wrong and the board is breaking their duty to the association. I would agree that most of the time the board should do what the majority of the association wants, to me this is not one of those times.

NicoleO4

Posts:0

06/18/2008 10:26 AM
People. I need to clarify a few things. We have a tiny pool area, a tiny spa. We have DVR surviellance. The pool... is only 4.0 feet deep at the deepest end! The spa or jacuzzi only seats 4 adults. No we do have a gate monitor that is just plain silly. You must picture the pool is no larger than 15 ft by 15 ft.. it is more or less a large adult wading pool... just enough room for a floating chaise lounge... I already spoke to our board. We can ask that no alcohol be in the area, but this rule was just pushed off and kicked out by homeowners vote. Our small pool area is too small to have anyone diving into 4ft or water or having a gate monitor. I was serious when I posted that I would not walk up to our known condo drunk to inspect his cup. It puts me at risk for egged doors, keyed cars... frankly my volunteer role ends with confrontation of potential drinkers at the pool. I have lived in our cummunity for 8 years.. not once NOT ONCE has there been an alcohol related issue with rowdy peeps or a injury. Our entire pool.. is under DVR recording.

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