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JaneK
(California)

Posts:175

02/21/2008 6:18 PM
Greetings, I would appreciate those of you familiar with CA law to comment on this situation: The board is walking thru inspecting the landscaping with the management rep and discussing what needs to be done, where the contractor falls short, etc. I say it’s a meeting as defined by CC CA 1363.05 and requires member notification. CC CA 1363.05 (f) As used in this section, “meeting” includes any congregation of a majority of the members of the board at the same time and place to hear, discuss, or deliberate upon any item of business scheduled to be heard by the board, except those matters that may be discussed in executive session. (The entire law can be read here: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/calawquery?codesection=civ&codebody=1363.&hits=20 ) Management claims it is not a meeting requiring notification because no decisions will be made. You all are quite knowledgeable in these matters, what are your thoughts on this? Thanks Jane

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2951

02/21/2008 6:35 PM
Jane, Have the Board post a notice that they will be walking the neighborhood, looking at landscaping and everyone is welcome to walk along. Sometimes a Board has to do these sort of jobs to know what is going on outside of the meeting room. As management said, it is not like they are making any financial decisions but getting information together for a meeting at a later date.

JaneK
(California)

Posts:175

02/21/2008 6:59 PM
Donna, That is an excellent suggestion and that’s exactly what CA law requires. They will not do it because, according to management, it isn’t a meeting. But the law doesn’t say anything about decisions, only discussing business of the association. “…hear, discuss, or deliberate upon any item of business scheduled to be heard by the board,…” I feel they have to, by law, post those notices as you suggest. Jane

hoatalk

Posts:490

02/22/2008 3:46 AM
Posted By JaneK on 02/21/2008 6:59 PM ...“…hear, discuss, or deliberate upon any item of business scheduled to be heard by the board,…” I feel they have to, by law, post those notices as you suggest. Jane Donna and others, Wouldn't the term "item of business scheduled to be heard by the board" be key here? If the board is simply reviewing landscaping and walking the community, then are they not just gathering info for a future meeting? It's not an official item "scheduled to be heard by the board". Wouldn't that item be an agenda item like, "Discuss performance of landscape contractor and possible need to hire another one". When they agenda item comes up in an official meeting, then the info. gathered on the walk would be discussed in the formal meeting. It seems there could be many occasions where the board would go on an information mission prior to a meeting. For example, to go look at mailbox styles for a mailbox replacement; then present those in a meeting. It seems to me this is not an official meeting.

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GeraldT4

Posts:934

02/22/2008 6:10 AM
JaneK - It was a congregation of board members to discuss items but until they meet, review, and discuss, the matters may or may not be items of business that need to be scheduled to be heard. Official notice with agenda to the entire community regarding a management and board landscaping site walk would be overkill. After all, the board is elected to act on behalf of the entire association including themselves. Sometimes there are matters that require swift organization and action by the board. Not sure if you are hinting at this but to expect prior written notice during those circumstances is impossible. Matters discussed in your situation would IMHO fall under the category of executive session, and matters requiring action should be noted on an agenda for ratification (vote) in an open meeting. Decisions that need to be made may or may not come out of this site-walk, and may not have a dollar figure attached. The walk could have shown that all is well with the current landscaping, or minor adjustments need to be made with no financial impact upon the community. However, if through this site walk it's was determined that decisions do need to be made, then a meeting and notice to the community will be necessary. Minutes of the site walk would be a good idea as a way of placing them on file and for the community to review if need be. Even if those decisions were already made prior to the open meeting. Again, things happen in between meetings and the Board is required to act on behalf of the association.

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:2316

02/22/2008 7:28 AM
Probably, and hopefully, ALL Board members would be taking notes (not minutes!! Those are ONLY for official meetings). Then, at the meeting, and at the vote time, debate could be heard. Hopefully, there was committee formed that would come up with action-recommendations, based on the observations. (As you can tell, I am a proponent of strong Committees and less micro-managing of the Board. That the entire Board is doing this walk-around is indicative of their governing style.)

GeraldT4

Posts:934

02/22/2008 7:40 AM
SusanW1 - My opinion is that it is very impressive when an entire Board gathers with Management, outside of a regularly scheduled open meeting, to discuss association matters that may need resolution or require attention. This way there's no hearsay, all can see firsthand, and it shows the interest that the matter requires. To me it's indicative of a hands on approach, not micro-managing. JaneK did not state what stage her association is in, and how long the existing board members have been serving. They could be newbies, or sage elected officials, or a mix and therefore somewhere in between. Certainly it's good that committees be involved or partake in the site walk and report to the Board. We just don't know the particulars of how this meeting was formed. You call them notes, I called them minutes, you are correct. However, there's nothing wrong with someone compiling all the notes and keeping them on file in case anyone wants to learn of what was discussed during the site walk. : )

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2951

02/22/2008 8:04 AM
Jane, I do not feel that the Board "HAS TO" post the inspection tour for the members according to Cal. law. It was just a suggestion to appease the members who are questioning. They , the Board, certainly are not having a meeting as the definition of a meeting is worded. Sometimes it doesn't hurt a Board to include curious residents in a project where they cannot get into too much trouble. Just an idea.

PatrickH
(California)

Posts:197

02/22/2008 10:10 AM
Hi Jane, It's Patrick from the AHRC website group. I saw your posting to me over there, but wanted to respond via this site since it gets so much more traffic and input. It may just be nitpicking the wording of that regulation, but if the Board is meeting at a landscape walk through and aren't discussing "an item of business TO BE HEARD by the Board", then it may not be an official meeing. If the Board is looking at something specific that was proposed at a previous meeting, such as cutting down some trees, then it does sounds like a meeting to me since the decision on the tree removal is something that qualifies as "business to be heard by the Board". If they are just looking at how the landscaping is doing in general and not researching at any specific proposal, then there may not be any "business to heard by the Board" discussed in the walk through. Regardless of the semantics, it would be great to get as many people as possible, both board members and non board members, to participate in anything regarding the HOA.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1748

02/23/2008 9:50 AM
may i be even MORE nitpicky... the law states that the subject must be "SCHEDULED" to be heard by the board. so, i contend that even if it is a matter that needs to be heard by the board, should be heard by the board, or must be heard by the board, unless it is SCHEDULED as an agenda item on a future board meeting, they can meet all they want to discuss it. it's not scheduled. least ways, that's what my law degree from the side of a pop tart box tells me..

JaneK
(California)

Posts:175

02/23/2008 3:47 PM
I am being rediculously nit-picky on the wording of this. Legislators write laws to keep lawyers employed. It’s rare that a majority of board members go, because most walk thrus take place while everyone’s working. Landscaping and the landscape maintenance companies have been an on-going issue with us and these walk thrus are more than just fact gathering missions. I can guarantee you that decisions will be made, since often it is best to have any problems addressed ASAP. They will announce them at the next scheduled meeting. I don’t have a problem with that. Brian, usually when these walk thrus are done the agenda has not been determined, but since the issues are on-going, they’re almost always on the schedule. It’s also not uncommon for a director and/or management to find a violation during landscape walk thrus and send a violation letter. Which may lead to yet a new thread about only one board member having a violation letter sent…..to only one owner……..when everyone else has the same violation………..? Jane

JaneK
(California)

Posts:175

02/23/2008 4:03 PM
Oh, Thank you all for taking the time to answer my question and providing more to think about. Jane

JaneK
(California)

Posts:175

02/23/2008 6:32 PM
Patrick, I agree. We had a whopping three members at the last board meeting. Apathy rules Jane

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