CraigK
(Florida)
Posts:9
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| 01/23/2008 12:41 PM |
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Our association rules state "Boats, motor homes, trailers, commerical vehicles, campers, trucks or any vehicle with any printing or advertising cannot be parked in Ocean Dunes."
The property manager is telling me this ban extends to personal pick-up trucks, even in our own garages. I find it hard to believe that this interpretation of the rule is legally enforceable. It seems to violate fair housing practices.
To add insult to injury, the association DOES allow bigger trucks such as Chevy Suburbans. They claim those are SUV's but not trucks.
Does anyone know if this specific question has been adjudicated in Florida or nationally or have any insight into this ban? |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2951
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| 01/23/2008 12:48 PM |
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Craig,
Are the restrictions that you quoted exactly from the protective covenants?
Send us the exact wording. My association just went thru a very costly lawsuit against 2 Cadillac Escalade EXTs. Ours was a driveway issue but the Judges exact words were "That an Association that has included a specific type of vehicle ban, may enforce such a ban." There is more to it but this is the jist.
But the secret is in the wording from the Protective and Restrictive Covenants . Do not send us the ByLaws as they may not be different from the Covenants and do not have priority. |
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MikeS1
Posts:0
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| 01/23/2008 12:56 PM |
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| Hey Donna - We have a similar scenario - Our docs say that you can't park any vehicle that is 3/4 ton or more in open view in the community. I believe that the founders did that since the visitor spaces and reserved spaces are compact spaces and if you parked 3/4 ton trucks you would generally wind up with about 12 inches or less between the spaces. Everyone has a Country cadillac now, IE Yukons, Tahoe's, Navigators, Expeditions etc and while some are rated at 1/2 ton, some of these are 3/4 ton. We also have garage th parking and driveway parking. The key words here are "open view", but I WOULD be very interested to know who you modified your docs to satisfy everyone here, including the judge. Can you me elaborate on this? pls. |
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CraigK
(Florida)
Posts:9
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| 01/23/2008 1:10 PM |
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BINGO!!! Thank you.
I originally sent the wording from the rules. When Donna pointed me to the convenants I found something very interesting. It says, "Section 13. Commerical Trucks, Trailers, Campers and Boats. No trucks of any type (excepting, however, pickup trucks, campers and vans carrying no type of printign or advertising on the exterior thereof), commerical vehicles..." etc.
In any event, our covenants specifically allow pickups.
Now they are saying the restriction only applies to renters. This sounds like a fair housing violation. Any insight on this? |
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GeraldT4
Posts:934
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| 01/23/2008 1:14 PM |
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| CraigK - In my HOA and COA renters are considered associate members and are able to use the common, and limited elements just like any owner. If your association has a similar clause it can be interpreted the restriction on renters' pickup trucks is discrimination, as well as ridiculous if you ask me. |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2951
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| 01/23/2008 1:18 PM |
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Mike,
Our Protective Covenants read that NO parking of Campers, trailors, all the rest of the things, AND PICKUP TRUCKS may not be parked except within the improvement (garages). Garage doors are to remain closed except for ingress and egress and with a reasonable time allowances for work on the property.
We went to court after a 3 year battle with the mediator and the 2 Escallade owners. There were other issues in the case but pertaining to your question, the Judge ruled that yes, the Association may enforce the parking covenant BUT, (here's the unhappy part) The Cadilla Escallades WERE NOT considered pickup Trucks.
He ruled that the Manufacturers classification determined what was and what was not a pickup. But the plot thickens. the 2 trucks were 2002 and a 2004 models. G.M classified the 2002 as a pickup and the 2004 as a SUV. They are identical. It seems that G.M. marketing didn't think that spending $65,000 on a pickup was sellable and "segmented" them as SUV's.
Now the weight restriction is outdated and needs to be amended because of your situation of restricted space. Open view is not allowing the big boys to be parked so this is a huge issue. |
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MikeS1
Posts:0
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| 01/23/2008 1:23 PM |
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| I'd like to see anyone park two hummers side by side. I don't know what the solution here is. |
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MikeS1
Posts:0
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| 01/23/2008 1:24 PM |
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| Craig - Don't the HOA docs go on to define commercial vehicles in terms of other factors like weight? |
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CraigK
(Florida)
Posts:9
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| 01/23/2008 1:36 PM |
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Hey Mike,
No. Our Covenants do not define commercial vehicles. But now, that isn't the question any more because they specifically allow pickups.
Now the question is can the HOA have different rules for renters?
Our covenants state:
"An Owner, by the leasing of his Parcel, automatically delegates his rights of use and enjoyment of the Common Area and the facilities therein, to his Lessee, and such Owner relinquishes said rights during the term of such Lease."
I interpret this as meaning my renter inherits the same rights as I have as an owner. Is this true? Would it also extend to pet policy? |
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GeraldT4
Posts:934
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| 01/23/2008 1:48 PM |
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| CraigK - I would interpret your covenants to mean the rights of renters are limited to the use of common area, is subject to the rules and regulations and the covenants, BUT does not allow voting rights to renters. |
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MikeS1
Posts:0
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| 01/23/2008 2:36 PM |
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Craig - That's pretty clear, when it says mentions the exception - pickup trucks. I do think that in most cases that folks should be able to park a 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton pickup, but I would be not want to have to try to park next to a 1 ton pickup with duel rear wheels. I know that the duely is not the issue here and that your pickup is just another pretty Texas Cadillac, but I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
No they cannot descriminate against you, just because you're a renter. I'm not so sure that this comes under Fair Housing laws, but you might want to start with a certified letter to the P.M and the Board.
All your rights extend to the renter other than voting rights.
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2951
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| 01/23/2008 4:27 PM |
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Hi Craig,
Because I have a couple of rentals in different places, I understand the statement of "an owner by leasing his parcel automatically delegates his rights of use" etc,
This means that once you sign a lease, you as an owner no longer may use any of the amenities such as pool, clubhouse, playground or any other amenity of the common property. You have delegated it's use to the renter.
You do NOT give up your rights to vote and participate in any meetings of the association. |
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MikeS1
Posts:0
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| 01/24/2008 2:40 AM |
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| Donna - With all due respect.. I know HOA docs vary quite a bit, but I know in VA, all the docs that I've seen says that the renter does not get to vote. They technically cannot even address the board at board meetings during the open forum without getting a letter from a letter from the owner that allows the renter to speak in behalf of the owner at the meeting. We try to encourage the renters to partipate. It just improves communications and makes for a better community, when the renters have more of an understanding. The renter here in VA still doesn't get to vote at elections or other issues that require a community/member vote. Do your Florida docs really give voting rights to the renters? Tks. just curious. |
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MikeS1
Posts:0
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| 01/24/2008 2:40 AM |
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| Donna - With all due respect.. I know HOA docs vary quite a bit, but I know in VA, all the docs that I've seen says that the renter does not get to vote. They technically cannot even address the board at board meetings during the open forum without getting a letter from a letter from the owner that allows the renter to speak in behalf of the owner at the meeting. We try to encourage the renters to partipate. It just improves communications and makes for a better community, when the renters have more of an understanding. The renter here in VA still doesn't get to vote at elections or other issues that require a community/member vote. Do your Florida docs really give voting rights to the renters? Tks. just curious. |
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MikeS1
Posts:0
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| 01/24/2008 2:40 AM |
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| Donna - With all due respect.. I know HOA docs vary quite a bit, but I know in VA, all the docs that I've seen says that the renter does not get to vote. They technically cannot even address the board at board meetings during the open forum without getting a letter from a letter from the owner that allows the renter to speak in behalf of the owner at the meeting. We try to encourage the renters to partipate. It just improves communications and makes for a better community, when the renters have more of an understanding. The renter here in VA still doesn't get to vote at elections or other issues that require a community/member vote. Do your Florida docs really give voting rights to the renters? Tks. just curious. |
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GeraldT4
Posts:934
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| 01/24/2008 5:26 AM |
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Posted By DonnaS on 01/23/2008 4:27 PM
Hi Craig,
Because I have a couple of rentals in different places, I understand the statement of "an owner by leasing his parcel automatically delegates his rights of use" etc,
This means that once you sign a lease, you as an owner no longer may use any of the amenities such as pool, clubhouse, playground or any other amenity of the common property. You have delegated it's use to the renter.
You do NOT give up your rights to vote and participate in any meetings of the association.
DonnaS - I believe you are under the impression that Craig is the owner, and not the renter, correct? If so, and if Craig is indeed the owner (not the renter) than you are correct that Craig does not give up his rights to vote and participate in any meetings of the association. It's the renter that can't vote.
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2951
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| 01/24/2008 6:14 AM |
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Gerald and MIKE,
Mike, I think that you did not read my post correctly. I said that the owner of the unit DOES NOT give up their right to vote and to attend all meetings of the association. It's my last sentence.
What the owner does is give up their rights or delegates the tenant to use the amenities such as pool, clubhouse and that sort of thing.
Thanks Gerald for pointing that out. |
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LindaC3
(Florida)
Posts:526
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| 01/24/2008 7:24 AM |
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| DonnaS...I just couldn't resist asking this.......LOL are you in Martin County Fl ??? If so I am your neighbor to the north in PSL and I know all about the Cadillac issue and have spoken to the guy numerous times...LindaC3 :>} |
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CraigK
(Florida)
Posts:9
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| 01/24/2008 7:35 AM |
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To clarify, I am the owner of a unit in Jupiter, Florida.
I had a prosepctive tenant who was turned away by the real estate agent after teh Property Management told her that no pickups were allowed in the community. That is what got me started looking into this.
Do I have any legel recourse for the potential lost income from the prospective renter due to the mis-information given by the property management (or is that too nebulous to pursue)?
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2951
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| 01/24/2008 7:47 AM |
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Ahh Haa Linda, That's us! |
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CharlesW1
(Georgia)
Posts:821
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| 01/24/2008 7:52 AM |
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CraigK,
I feel you have been provided some very good advice. I agree with many of the posts thus far, although there have been some that are just absurd. IMHO.
I can’t image renting a condo/house/flat what have you and being TOLD by the MC or BOD that I couldn’t park MY vehicle in the garage! YEAH RIGHT! I can see not parking in sight, although that (too me) is as equally ridiculous, that’s a little bit more seasonable.
I would suggest that you get clarification for the OWNER. Apparently, the BOD and MC have a problem with renters in general and don’t feel they need to address your currently problem.
All their worried about doing is enforcing the governing documents. They obviously interpret them as they see fit, which is WRONG, in so many levels, morally and ethically.
Best of luck and keep us posted
Chuck W.
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Charles E. Wafer Jr. |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2951
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| 01/24/2008 7:55 AM |
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Craig,
Jupiter has got some reall hard(blank) associations when it comes to renters. As for a legal recourse, I would think that the M.C has insurance against or a disclaimer against a legal suit.
Have you shown the covenant that allows pickup trucks to M.C or the Board? Maybe someone thought that it wouldn't be noticed and they could slip this one thru. I would not persue it because it would cost you more than you could recoop. I would definitely let them know that they have made a bad decision and you will be on top of it from now on. Point out that you are a member in good standing and want what is right according to your documents.
P.S. Craig, In case you haven't discovered it yet, landlords are treated differently than the non renting owners. Just an observation. |
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CharlesW1
(Georgia)
Posts:821
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| 01/24/2008 8:14 AM |
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CraigK,
I agree with the majority of what DonnaS has posted. I too wouldn’t attempt to recoup any money lost either. I think you would be wasting your time. Although, I would make it my priority to notify the BOD and MC of the exact findings (governing documents) and request a written apology stating their misinterpretation of the governing documents, immediately!
This letter can ensure your future tenants that parking their TRUCK in the garage is permissible and you (as the deeded owner) would have PROOF of such in the future.
I feel that is the least they can do after such ridiculousness effort of enforcement, they should be ashamed of themselves.
Chuck W.
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Charles E. Wafer Jr. |
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LindaC3
(Florida)
Posts:526
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| 01/24/2008 8:38 AM |
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| DonnaS.......that is toooo funny indeed......neighbors in cyber space.....I do custom designing of construction plans for homes thus the reason for dealing with all these HOA'S.......unreal some of the documents and misunderstandings because they refuse to use LAYMAN type launguage.Hopefully this year the State Senate will get the bill based where all COA'S and HOA's MUST use clear language in all governing documents.....LindaC3 |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2951
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| 01/24/2008 8:50 AM |
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Linda,
Nice to meet you--sort of if this is a meet. The truck case went on for over 3 years, starting with the first Board before Turnover from the Developer. The second Board inherited the burdeon with no help from the Developer as he was friends with one of the EXT owners.
There are many stories involved in this case, way too many to tell but the main reason that the Boards were forced to persue this was because of ONE owner, a personal injury lawyer, who lived across the street from one of the trucks.
She sent a legal letter to the Board stating that the Protective Covenant was not being enforced--the one that said No Trucks In The Driveways. She said that she would sue the Board and that she "could outlast us being that she was a lawyer. The association lawyer after several conversations with her, determined that she was serious. And away we went with many more players in this story! |
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LaverneB
Posts:0
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| 01/24/2008 8:56 AM |
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| We here in our community do NOT allow pick-up trucks PERIOD. We are in court at this time. Man bought house, the so called "screening committee" did tell him and it is in our docs, no trucks even in garages. He signed a letter saying he would buy a car within 30 days, but re-cinded the letter next day. Now we have it with our lawyer. I was not at screening so I can not say for sure as to what went on. As the new president I am requiring one board member be there. We have big changes here and it is hard. People appoint themselves to these things. One other problem the old board members (2) of them will turn their keys in saying they need them because they are part of screening committe. That is not what we do and they know this. I believe they want to know what is going on at all times in community.Short of changing all locks I may not have choice. LaVerne |
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TracyT
(Maryland)
Posts:220
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| 01/24/2008 9:57 AM |
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| I'm so confused! Can some please remind me how a Board can make a "rule" that is enforcable, even though it conflicts with the Covenant without changing the Covenant? Ugh. |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2951
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| 01/24/2008 12:13 PM |
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Tracy,
Write down here what you are referring to. No rule may conflict with a covenant. |
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JillC
(California)
Posts:26
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| 01/24/2008 1:01 PM |
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I have been dealing with the same type of parking issue for over 3 years. Our CCR's say "A reasonable number of trailers, motorhomes, trucks, campers, boats and other such recreational vehicles, and inoperable vehicles may be stored within the project if kept within a fenced side or rear yard area or building constructed on the lot"
So, does this include icecream trucks, pickup trucks, fire trucks,ect.? This is where we have a different opinion that the board. They say our truck is included because it is larger (it is sold as a mid-size) and it is used for profit.
So we say, we can't park our truck in our driveway than no homeowner with a truck can park in their driveway. The CCR's do not have anything about signage, size, or anything but "truck" The board tried to changed the CCR's but lost the vote. Now they say they dont need to vote they will just change the rules and include my truck while leaving out the other trucks.
My board is nuts. The more I read the more I find that if you give a person a little power they go crazy.
Jill |
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TracyT
(Maryland)
Posts:220
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| 01/24/2008 1:18 PM |
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Hi Donna,
I should have used an emoticon (;-o). I was really just being facetious about this string because that's exactally what two different posters here said had happen to them ;-o . . .
But on a serious note regarding rules, right technically the Board is not supposed write one that conflict with Covenant. Our Board did a similar thing and I got the rule changed. The measure went to an association voted and passed as defined in our by-laws. You might check into how a rule is changed in your HOA and follow that process if its important to you.
T |
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