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LakoH1
(West Virginia)

Posts:9

06/17/2007 2:28 PM
Hello All, I've been trying to post this but for some unknown reason it won't let me. My husband and I went to the store yesterday and we decided to go the other way out of the community. While going that way, we were looking for homes with storm doors. Well low and behold there is a house that has the same storm door I got denied. This house belongs to the VP. I will be mailing this to the CM. Dear CM, Thank you for responding so quickly to our ARC changes. However we have noticed the home located at (" ")has the same storm door you denied me. I need to add more to this letter, any advise would be helpful. *I would like to put in this letter, there is no description of Storm Doors/Full View in my Artice VIII. If there were, the VP would have the exact door he's talking about. I want to make sure they can not come up with an automatic change to storm doors. I went to Lowes who has the interchangeable storm door (full glass/screen). I don't think I would want to spend $248 pretax to keep popping a full sheet of glass in/out of my door and having to store that large piece some where hoping it won't get broke. Eventually the older we get, we will get tired or won't be able to change the glass/screen as often. ***************************************************************************************** This was my CM's response: Mr / Mrs. H, While the covenants do not specifically address storm doors, it is the determination of the ARC that the “Full View” storm door is the preferred choice for storm door installation for the front of the home within the community. This decision and product remains consistent with the Covenants Article VIII Section 4 in that the full view door is in keeping with the harmony of external design in relation to the surrounding structures (homes) in the community. If you do not agree with the decision, you may appeal the decision to the Board of Directors. Please provide in writing a request for hearing regarding this issue. You may send this request to our office and I will forward your hearing request to the BOD. I will then be in contact with regard to their decision to hear your concern and/ or the time and place the hearing will occur. Thanks for contacting our office Best regards, ****************This is what's in my Article VIII*************************** "RESTRICTIONS & PROTECTIVE COVENANTS Section 4:Approval of Plans and Spectfications Required: No building, house, garage, fence, hedge, wall, sidewalk, pool, deck, outbuilding,storage bldg, or any other structure shall be commenced, erected, grown or maintained upon the properties, nor shall any exterior addition to or change or alteration therein be made until the plans and spectfications showing the nature, kind, design, shape, height, materials, color and location of the same shall have been submitted to an approved in writing as to the harmony of the external and location in relation to surround structures and topography by the Developer, or BOD of the Assocication, or by an ARC composed of (3) three or more representatives appointed by the Assocication, as hereinafter set forth. In the event the developer, Assocication, or the AR Committee fail to approve or disapprove such design and location within (30) thirty days after said plans and spectfications have been submitted to it, approval will not be required and this Article will be deemed to have been fully complied with. Members of the ARCommittee shall be appointed by the BOD for 1 year terms and shall be persons who are either lot owners in the subdivision or members of the BOD.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/17/2007 3:15 PM
If you VP has the same door then appeal. There is no "legal" way they can deny you if the VP has it. One key is to remain civil throughout this procedure, arguing, namecalling will hurt your chances. I would write a nice appeal letter to your board and include pictures of the door that is there and ask that since that is there yours be allowed.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1842

06/17/2007 6:00 PM
Including a picture of the one the VP has and the one that you are requesting is an excellent idea. That will help eliminate any "communication" errors.

LakoH1
(West Virginia)

Posts:9

06/17/2007 6:33 PM
I was not sure if I should include the photo of the VP's door. I will do that tomorrow. I still have the photo of the door I requested. I know I must be very civil when it comes to this. Thank You

MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:650

06/17/2007 9:02 PM
How do you know the door was not present when the VP bought the house? Your assuming the VP installed the door themselves. It could have been a case where the previous owner installed the door in violation. That owner ignored the warnings and sold the property. So in the transfer, the violation was never officially addressed and therefore, "grandfathered in". I would simply say that the door your interested in installing is similar or exact to the existing door you've seen in the community already. Take a picture if you want. This still doesn't mean you will get your door. They can simply request the VP/or owner of the door remove theirs. You may have just pointed out a violation instead of getting your door approval. I've seen that done and I've done that other members. If you point out a violation so you can put up your own violation, it may not fly the way you want. I had a neighbor who had a basketball goal. It was okay until another neighbor across the street wanted their own. Their kids had gotten on separate basketball teams. They didn't want them to practice together. However, the other neighbors house was on a dangerous "blind corner" and was NOT an area for a goal. Instead, we had the original goal completely removed since it was a violation. The neighbor let us move it to a common area where the central basketball goal already existed. So no one got a basketball goal. Just be careful of what you ask for. Uniformity is the basis of a HOA. Point out something not uniform, and it may go another way.

Former HOA President

JudithC
(Virginia)

Posts:252

06/18/2007 4:13 AM
I'd give it a go as it should not hurt. The door could be grandfathered in, either under Melissa's scenario or the board could have decided later to impose this rule and grandfather in all doors that don't agree with it saying that when they get changed they must be the approved door. Courts don't always uphold this, BTW. Our community has the full view door rule and there is a type of door where the top part stores in the bottom that is still considered full view. Most full view doors when the screen is in have a small divider in the center to add stability, I think this door has it at all times. Check out the Fullview Easy Vent door at http://tinyurl.com/2u3ltj This looks like the type of thing I have seen and they even call it Fullview.

PaulM
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:1347

06/18/2007 5:25 AM
Lako: You are correct when you state that you may not want to store the full glass from the screen door because of its weight and possible breakage while storing (we also want to think ahead to our golden years...) and/or to store it to prevent breakage. This is a good point to make when presenting your case for another type of storm door with screen. The full view door they have requested all to use only means that the door is full view glass or screen, but not a door which is glass or screen at top and a solid material at the bottom. It is very common for communities to request a full view storm/screen door. They are much more appealing. What type of storm/screen door does the VP have that you are having a problem with?

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/18/2007 8:59 AM
It shouldn't matter whether the door on the VP house was grandfathered in or what happened with it, it also should not matter whose house it is. If I were filing the appeal I would take a picture of the door, not reference the house unless asked and simply state in my appeal that one already exists in our neighborhood that I would like the opportunity to put up the exact same door. The how and why of the first door doesn't matter, because even if it was approved it doesn't mean they have to approve now. It is all about presentation if you want a fighting chance to get this.

JoeW1
(New York)

Posts:728

06/18/2007 9:56 AM
Dear LakoH1 - The President that has the door you wish may not have followed procedure, therefore, two wrongs won't make a right. Your best chance to win an appeal is to write a respectful letter to the Board members requesting the door you wish to install and the reasons why. I would include a line that the door you wish to install is the same as that of the one installed on the unit of the President of the HOA (provide unit number). Therefore approval of the same door for your unit will provide visual harmony of the external elements.

LakoH1
(West Virginia)

Posts:9

06/18/2007 11:44 AM
Here is a link of the door I want, but got denied and 2 people have it installed. http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=188895-53-34660032&lpage=none Here is a link of what other neighbors have installed. http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=56344-53-56344&lpage=none I sent the CM a full photo of the door I wish to install and got denied, because it must be FULL VIEW.. I don't care when the door was installed. You can't approve one door and deny others. I don't care if that person is in violation or not, not my problem. If someone wanted something I had up, but got denied, they would be doing the same thing. How does anyone know if they got approval or not (don't know). How do I know if other neighbors got told the same thing and are not doing anything about it. As I was typing this I paused and drove around the community and noticed another home with the same exact door/color has been installed at another home. This is a brand new community of 52 homes, you must like in your home for at least 1 yr. So no MELISSAP I'm not assuming, the home was not a resale. The VP was the first house in the community (How do I know, I got it from the horses mouth at a meeting before there was a BOD). Your community is enjoying the basketball court. We all can not enjoy a storm door. Our community has nothing to enjoy, but their own home. I will be sending the CM 2 photos of the storm doors that are installed in this community. I don't care what kind of door, color you have, it's just when I send in a request to have the same thing and get denied, then why does that person have it up (violation or not, approval or not). You can not approve some of the same designs and deny others. I don't care what kind of door anyone has up. You can not deny a door, drive around your community and see others with the same door (different color). I'm not going to stop and ask each neighbor if they were approved or not. I don't have money to waste and have no place to locate that violation.

PaulM
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:1347

06/18/2007 1:26 PM
Lako: I think your plan to send photos of the 2-installed doors #34660032 as your neighbors have, and it is the one you want, is a good one. - Can you ask your 2 neighbors how they went about getting approval for their doors? - and did they actually provide the model number for the door that was installed? One important point...you state the committee is saying it must be a FULL VIEW DOOR. The door you want is listed as a 'full view door' so in that regard you are requesting exactly what is required. Further, the door model the 'other neighbors have' #56344-53 is listed as full view as well, but it is an older model door with removable glass. To be nit picky, do your documents give the model number or particulars beyond just full view? If not, you are in the right. Part of a Board/Committee's role is to stay abreast of new products coming on the market and to be realistic enough to address these products for community requests. In this case, you want the full view door which will be easier for you to manager over the seasons and the years ahead as you are older. They are picking at hairs and not being reasonable.

JudithC
(Virginia)

Posts:252

06/18/2007 1:29 PM
That is the same door that I sent a link to, it is called full view and we allow them as full view doors. When I look at the picture again, it is a bit peculiar and perhaps confused the CM. If you look at the one of the mid-view right next to it it shows the stairway behind it. The door right to the right of it has a retractable screen and looks like it is full view. The easy vent one it looks like it might be solid with just a little bit of a view (which is how they used to make them). Anyhow, I would definitely appeal the decision and point out that perhaps the picture isn't clear and for an example of how it would look see the houses at () and (). Usually the guidelines have some sort of statement in there that it is immaterial whether you see others just like you want in your neighborhood but I think you have a real good argument going in that the manufacturer considers it full view, others have considered it full view in your own community, etc. etc. The association tries to protect themselves against charges of selective enforcement by sliding in the "it doesn't matter" statement, but sometimes the courts do find it does matter. Anyhow, I would hope reason would prevail in your association. I have found in my association that it is best to talk to them face to face. Everyone seems hell bent on showing you how reasonable they are then -- it is very peculiar to watch, but definitely people get away with stuff if they just come in, bow down, and plead their cases.

HaroldS1
(Arizona)

Posts:314

06/18/2007 1:42 PM
Lako - you are trying to do things right by appealing their decision with evidence. However, since the VP's house was the first to be occupied, that means any changes that were allowed were approved by the developer and not the present homeowner members on the ARC. Perhaps the second one you've found was too. That's the sad fact about getting changes approved. Quite often the builder is more lenient in approving changes than your neighbors on the ARC will be. Obviously if the builder approved that door he didn't think it was going to destroy the community's image since he was still building and wanting to sell houses. Frankly, in spite of Melissa's mantra for "uniformity" I don't see how the door you want would become the begining of the end of your development. Good luck and keep us posted. Harold

JoeW1
(New York)

Posts:728

06/18/2007 6:23 PM
LakoH1, The doors are different. Model 34660032 (unapproved) has two horizontal bars at the midsection whereas 56344 (approved) does not. 2 units out of 52, to me does not right any wrong. You may say you don't care what kind of door, color you have, but I bet you'd care if an owner's lawn is not mown consistently, or manicured. Consistency and enforcement with room for individuality is what differentiates a properly run and poorly run HOA. So if you don't care about consistency, perhaps you need to move out of a deed restricted environment. A Board of Directors absolutely can and should deny an owner's request to go down an unapproved path that other owners have unwisely chosen to take. Suggestion, do not seek approval by pointing out other owners transgressions. Focus on your reason for choosing the door you like for it's structural integrity, visual harmony with the unit, cost savings of model 34660032 compared to model 56344, benefit to the eligible mortgage holders of the screen changeability. Appeal to the Board's reasonableness.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1842

06/18/2007 8:38 PM
If I'm reading her correctly, I don't think she intends to point out others who are doing wrong and saying therefore she should be allowed to do wrong too. I think she is simply pointing out that IF the other 2 doors are approved, then there is no legitimate reason for denying her the exact same door. I know that sounds like a subtle difference, but it's an important difference. If there exists units that already have the same door AND THOSE ARE APPROVED DOORS, then there is no reason at all to deny her request. IF the other 2 doors are NOT approved, then MY next step would be to then place a formal complaint regarding non-compliance. If the board is going to claim consistency, it should be doing it in its approval process as well.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/19/2007 7:30 AM
I don't think there is anything wrong with citing what is in the neighborhood, it is all in how you do it. I would simply take a picture, point out that this door exists in our neighborhood. What harm is there in supporting your request with evidence. How you present it is important, simply stating the fact that these doors already exist in the neighborhood is not a bad thing. Now, if they were to say these doors exist, these people were allowed to circumvent the rules and I better be allowed to do it, yes that is the wrong approach.

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