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Subject: How to get notice to tenant refusing it?

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MarcW
(Texas)

Posts:11

05/05/2007 12:39 PM
An owner in my small condo assoc. has been taking the faceplate off of and disconnecting new lighting that serves his stairwell; these lights were obtained at considerable expense to our community - tampering with electrical fixtures is clearly against our bylaws and the behavior is also exposing them to the elements, creating a fire hazard. I've asked our MC to mail him notice, and have also posted notices to his door - these are later found in the garbage and unread. Would the police be able do anything about serving him? How else should I proceed, if not?

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

05/05/2007 12:55 PM
Posted By MarcW on 05/05/2007 12:39 PM An owner in my small condo assoc. has been taking the faceplate off of and disconnecting new lighting that serves his stairwell; these lights were obtained at considerable expense to our community - tampering with electrical fixtures is clearly against our bylaws and the behavior is also exposing them to the elements, creating a fire hazard. I've asked our MC to mail him notice, and have also posted notices to his door - these are later found in the garbage and unread. Would the police be able do anything about serving him? How else should I proceed, if not? I don't know about serving him, but they certainly can do something about "vandalism" or "destruction of property". Report his actions with any proof you have. Another approach (or you could do both) is to "vandal proof" the fixtures or faceplate. As a former public school employee faced with preventing and repairing vandalism, I know there are several ways to "slow down" or discourage vandalism. Ask your electrician what can be done to protect the equipment.

Ron SC

Jadedone4
(Virginia)

Posts:495

05/05/2007 1:29 PM
I concur... also, while it may seem "overkill" you do need to make sure that you report to local police department, so that a report is on file. Also, contact your insurance carrier, in today's litigious society, you often have to product the idiots from themselves. Just make sure you cover the HOA from any exposure to liability (I know, I know, he is tampering with the electrical, but we all have heard the "dumbest lawsuits" stories).

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

05/05/2007 2:37 PM
Marc: Send him a certified, return receipt letter and also a first class letter. That should be sufficient notice, even if he refuses the certified letter. I would recommend stapling one to his forehead but that might get you in trouble.

KevinK5

Posts:0

05/05/2007 2:43 PM
Obviously the tenant doesn't like the lights. Has anyone investigated why this is the case? Are the lights too bright or shining directly into his windows? Maybe relocating the light or installing a light shield will also solve the problem. Maybe lighting the stairs instead of the whole stairwell is the answer. (check out darksky.org) As for notice, I have heard here in Florida that mailing to the address with a regular letter and a certified letter are considered acceptable notice before imposing a fine or lien. I know the county will post notice on the property before doing work and billing the owner, but they don't serve a summons. In what state are you located? It seems like undue burden on the HOA to have to hire a summons server or equivalent.

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

05/05/2007 2:47 PM
Posted By KevinK5 on 05/05/2007 2:43 PM Obviously the tenant doesn't like the lights. Has anyone investigated why this is the case? Are the lights too bright or shining directly into his windows? Maybe relocating the light or installing a light shield will also solve the problem. Maybe lighting the stairs instead of the whole stairwell is the answer. ............... Or maybe the owner could not be a jerk and speak with the association or MC about his problem instead of vandalizing the electrical system. Would he vandalize a city streetlight if it bothered him? I say, call the police, have him arrested.

Ron SC

KevinK5

Posts:0

05/05/2007 6:29 PM
Well, I was trying to be sympathetic, but I have to agree with you Ron. This guy has vandalized the lights. Yes, I can understand why he might have done it, but that is still no excuse. On the legal issue, I stand corrected.

PaulM
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:1347

05/06/2007 5:33 AM
KevinK5: Appreciate your responses which show a mindset of wanting to get to the 'root' of a resident problem, instead of other responses which reflect an attitude of 'elevated superiority looking for a fight'. This (yours) is the only way HOAs will successfully function, with people working out their difficulties and concerns together, instead of authority immediately declaring 'off with their heads...and fine them! Thanks.

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

05/06/2007 6:40 AM
Posted By PaulM on 05/06/2007 5:33 AM KevinK5: Appreciate your responses which show a mindset of wanting to get to the 'root' of a resident problem, instead of other responses which reflect an attitude of 'elevated superiority looking for a fight'. This (yours) is the only way HOAs will successfully function, with people working out their difficulties and concerns together, instead of authority immediately declaring 'off with their heads...and fine them! Thanks. An HOA is not a social club, in many ways' it's a mini government (and I don't mean this in a bad way, it provides services for the community that the government has declined to do such as roar and common ground maintenance, lighting, recreational facilities, etc.). This person is vandalizing the property of the association (and its members). If he came onto your property and disconnected your porch light multiple times would you go visit him and ask him if it bothered him or would you call the police? If he vandalized a city streetlight or stop sign would the police or a judge ask if he did it because it bothered him? There's no difference here, it's vandalism.

Ron SC

KevinK5

Posts:0

05/06/2007 9:00 AM
Posted By RonaldW on 05/06/2007 6:40 AM An HOA is not a social club, in many ways' it's a mini government... But, government is a social organization, and since we are so close to each other in a neighborhood, I think some extra steps could be taken. If someone kept disconnecting my porch light I would think there might be a reason for it besides the guy just being a criminal. Yes, he's clearly wrong, but is it because my porch light is actually a flood light pointed at his house? In that case I am also wrong. If I were a county official and drivers kept disobeying a traffic signal, that should tell me to investigate why. People don't "always" do things for no reason.

DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:443

05/06/2007 10:03 AM
Posted By KevinK5 on 05/06/2007 9:00 AM If I were a county official and drivers kept disobeying a traffic signal, that should tell me to investigate why. People don't "always" do things for no reason. And more than likely as a county official you would hold public hearings where people would have the opportunity to come and explain why, or the people who kept disobeying the traffic signal would have the opportunity to explain themselves in court. In this case the person has the opportunity to explain the problem by coming to a board meeting to discuss the issue, but by refusing the notices he is giving the board members no options. With no way to get input from this person, their only recourse now would be to take legal action. This actually reminds me of a situation that I was in several years ago where somebody was vandalizing lights on my property. I had installed landscape lighting next to the steps leading up to my elevated front yard. For some reason, somebody started dismantling the lights. They would leave the parts there and I would put everything back together, but every couple of days I would find that the lights had been dismantled again. In my case I had no idea who was doing it and I was getting very frustrated. I finally called the police, but without evidence of who was doing it, there wasn't much that they could do. What they did do though was have an officer come out to "investigate". He basically stood out in my front yard for about an hour talking with me any anybody who happened to come by, taking notes and generally being very visible. After this visit the problem stopped. Simply by being visible he got the word out that this could be a serious problem, and I guess whoever was doing the vandalism decided that it wasn't worth it anymore. Maybe this situation could be handled in a similar manner. If a police officer comes out and just asks questions about the lights being dismantled. If he sees that the police can get involved if he continues, he may finally get the hint.

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

05/06/2007 11:51 AM
I'm having a hard time believing what I'm seeing posted here. In what country does an individual have the right to tamper with or destroy someone else’s property because it bothers him? USA? I don't think so.

Ron SC

KevinK5

Posts:0

05/06/2007 3:44 PM
Posted By RonaldW on 05/06/2007 11:51 AM I'm having a hard time believing what I'm seeing posted here. In what country does an individual have the right to tamper with or destroy someone else’s property because it bothers him? USA? I don't think so. Who is saying this? I don't read that anywhere in these posts.

KevinK5

Posts:0

05/06/2007 5:11 PM
Posted By DwightT on 05/06/2007 10:03 AM And more than likely as a county official you would hold public hearings where people would have the opportunity to come and explain why, or the people who kept disobeying the traffic signal would have the opportunity to explain themselves in court. Dwight, don't be silly. I only said we should investigate why people are doing things. If you don't know why someone is fighting against you, then you have weakened your position to win. Only when you know all sides of the story can you make a proper decision. Also to Ron: I am not saying this guy is right. I have not said that, and neither has anyone else in this thread. But if the lights are bothering this one guy enough to make him commit a crime then maybe they are also bothering someone else. I am not saying the lights are at fault, but there is the possibility that the lights are improperly installed, improperly aligned, buzzing, or blinding people on the stairs. If no one has looked at that possibility then I don’t think they are doing their job correctly. There are plenty of complaints in this forum about boards making decisions without investigating. The answer to the original post has been made. Call the police and press charges if needed. I agreed with Ron on this a few posts above. But I do not think that should be the end of it. Slamming the guy into jail will put the fear of God into anyone else considering tampering with the lights, but is that the goal here? No, the goal is to keep the lights from being vandalized. Investigating why can also help prevent this situation from happening again.

DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:443

05/07/2007 7:37 AM
Posted By KevinK5 on 05/06/2007 5:11 PM Dwight, don't be silly. I only said we should investigate why people are doing things. If you don't know why someone is fighting against you, then you have weakened your position to win. Only when you know all sides of the story can you make a proper decision. Ok Kevin. So how would you suggest that the OP "investigate" this situation? The OP has tried to contact the person who is dismantling the lights. He has sent letters, posted notices on the door, all with no success. Getting both sides of the story is fine, but you can only do that when both sides are willing to share their side. Since one side doesn't appear to want to communicate at all other than to vandalize the lights, how would you suggest that the OP go about finding out why this person is "fighting against" him? And would you care to explain what is so "silly" about a city councilman holding public hearings? Or more pertinent in this case, in the Board inviting the person to a Board meeting to explain why he seems to have a problem with the light?

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

05/07/2007 8:30 AM
I find it amusing that anyone would try to condone the criminal actions of someone and instead of contacting the authorities would try to find out what the real issue is. The real issue is this person feels like they can vandalize HOA property. As someone said, if he has a problem with the lights or with the way the HOA is being run there are proper ways to address that, either by contacting a board member or the MC, or by attending a board meeting and speaking up. Why should the HOA try to understand the criminal actions of others. Kevin and Paul I applaud you for wanting to try to help people, but do you really want to foster an environment that if you want to get your way or want to be heard start destroying HOA property and people will listen? I don't think you do, if you let this guy get away with it, then someone else says, why don't I take a can of gas and spell out something on the HOA lawn. Or why don't I spraypaint the building, or why don't I do this or that. There comes a time and a place where the line has to be drawn, when criminal activity is taking place you draw the line. If you were arguing with this guy about a trashcan he left out to long that is one thing, but when he commits a crime all negotiations should cease and you should toe the line.

KevinK5

Posts:0

05/07/2007 7:25 PM
Okay, I'll bite one more time, Dwight. You don't have to talk to the person to investigate. 1-Check the lights when they are on at night. Check for those things I mentioned like buzzing, improper wattage, etc. 2-Talk to a neighbor or other resident who has the same installation. Since this is a condo, it is probably a cooker cutter installation and the exact situation exists in more than one place. 3-You had a good idea, invite him to a meeting. But you also said he is not communicating, so that probably won't work. 4-Step 4: Well, I'm out of ideas, but at least I made some kind of attempt to investigate. That is all I am trying to say. But you, and Ron, and now Brad are convinced I am somehow sticking up for this guy's behavior. I am not sticking up for him. I am not condoning his behavior. I am not saying the association is at fault. I don’t see where I made any comment about “helping” this guy. I don't know how else to word it. You seem to be reading a whole lot more into my words than what is here. The situation is this: Someone is vandalizing the lights. If you want to shoot first and ask questions later, or ask questions then shoot, then by all means go ahead. But at least ask questions at some point. I don't agree with considering the situation closed by calling the police. This is not normal vandalizing like kids do when they break out street lights or spray paint walls. This is an adult who thinks he is somehow justified in what he is doing. I believe it would be in the best interest of the community to do some kind of investigation into why this happened to see if it can be prevented from happening again. Something as simple as making sure the lights aren't buzzing. This is not fostering an environment that vandalism is okay. Calling the police shows the association’s position just fine on issues of vandalism.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

05/07/2007 7:49 PM
Kevin: I didn't say you were ok with his behavior. All I am saying is this man is a grown adult and if he has issue with the lights then he should say something. Since he has resorted to this type of behavior IMO he has lost any opportunity to negotiate and talk until he stops. I don't thnk any association should be flexible with criminal behavior, they should not cross that line.

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

05/08/2007 5:08 AM
Posted By BradP on 05/07/2007 7:49 PM Kevin: .................. All I am saying is this man is a grown adult and if he has issue with the lights then he should say something. Since he has resorted to this type of behavior IMO he has lost any opportunity to negotiate and talk until he stops. I don't thnk any association should be flexible with criminal behavior, they should not cross that line. I agree with Brad. As association officers we are charged with protecting the property of the association. This person is vandalizing association property and it needs to stop. Also, he should be charged for the costs of repairs to the vandalized property.

Ron SC

KevinK5

Posts:0

05/08/2007 3:21 PM
Great, we're all in agreement then.

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